Career Club Live with Bob Goodwin
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Career Club Live with Bob Goodwin
Mastering Job Interviews with Sam Owens: Tips, Techniques, and Transformative Strategies
Can mastering job interviews really be the key to unlocking your dream career? Join us on Career Club Live as we welcome Sam Owens, founder of Sam's Career Talk and the current CMO of Freezing Point, the makers of Frazzle. Sam takes us through his remarkable career journey from ConAgra Foods to White Wave Foods and Danone, and onto smaller companies like Cali'flour Foods. Along the way, Sam shares invaluable lessons learned, shedding light on the strategic decisions that shaped his path. We also discuss his latest book, "I Hate Job Interviews," a must-read for anyone looking to conquer the often intimidating interview process.
Want to know the secrets behind acing job interviews? Sam Owens reveals them all, drawing from his experience of writing and publishing his book, which eventually caught the attention of HarperCollins. From obtaining inside information about companies to crafting powerful stories, Sam breaks down the essential principles of excelling in interviews. He emphasizes the importance of preparation and practice, explaining how these skills can be learned and perfected just like any other. With practical advice and insights, Sam's narrative promises to transform how you approach job interviews.
Ever wondered how to handle those curveball questions in interviews? Sam Owens has got you covered. He walks us through crafting "power stories" using the SPAR method (Situation, Problem, Action, Result) and shares strategies for tackling unconventional and potentially illegal questions with poise and diplomacy. We also explore techniques for soliciting feedback during interviews to uncover potential objections and refine your pitch. This episode is packed with actionable advice and encouragement for job seekers facing today's challenging market, making it an essential listen for anyone looking to boost their interview game.
Hi everybody, this is Bob Goodwin and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live. Today's episode is brought to you by Career Club Corner. Our weekly Thursday at 1 o'clock Eastern Time, group coaching calls. They are free for all job seekers and they will always be free. But if you or someone you care about is in job search and they would benefit from some expert career coaching, we'd invite you to go to careerclub. Just click on the main banner and that it will get you registered for Career Club Corner Again group coaching every Thursday at one o'clock. So today I am super excited. For those of us who are in the career coaching, job search coaching business, it's actually pretty cool because people are very collaborative and you end up meeting a lot of great people.
Bob Goodwin:Today's guest is Sam Owens. Sam's the founder of Sam's Career Talk, where he provides coaching services and helps people find their dream jobs Awesome. He's also a CMO who's worked for three multi-billion dollar companies in the consumer package goods industry and now runs marketing for Freezing Point makers of Frazzle. He lives in Denver, colorado, with his wife, gina, and their four kids. He's also the author and this is what we're talking about today. I hate job interviews, so if you're a job seeker ever been a job seeker? That might be a sentence that's fallen from your lips, and we're going to learn more about how to not hate job interviews quite so much, and so with that, sam welcome.
Sam Owens:Hey, thanks for having me. Bob, Great to be here.
Bob Goodwin:No, it's great to have you. Thanks so much. So before we dive into the book, which I am super interested in, thank you for sending me a preview version of that I loved. It Is just a couple of icebreaker questions for folks to get to know you a little bit. So I said you're in Denver. Were you born and raised in Colorado?
Sam Owens:No, I'm from Walnut Creek, California, San Francisco Bay Area.
Bob Goodwin:Oh, awesome. So how long have you been in the Denver area?
Sam Owens:So we've been here for about 10 years, but we've been all over for my career. So we have four kids. Each kid was born in a different state, so we have the oldest is born in Virginia, then Utah, then Nebraska, then Colorado. Our youngest was in Colorado. So we either have to stop having kids or we have to move.
Bob Goodwin:Those are the options we either have to stop having kids or we have to move. Those are the options. That's funny. So we have four kids too, so my, my empathy level is really, really high. I think we've moved seven times okay, yeah and I always say creditors are very persistent, so we just but but that's cool, that's awesome and it's a real blessing. And then, where did you go to school? In California, or where'd?
Sam Owens:you go. I went to school, I went to undergrad in Idaho and then my graduate. I got an MBA, actually at Brigham Young in Provo, in Provo, utah, and that's I cannot believe it, but I graduated my MBA in 2009. I can't believe it's been that long.
Bob Goodwin:When you have kids, man, it goes by really fast.
Sam Owens:Yes.
Bob Goodwin:So I mentioned a little bit that you're a marketer. You might just maybe very briefly walk in a career. Just a little bit how you've ended up at Frazzle.
Sam Owens:Yes, absolutely. So I came out of business school with the mentality that, um, you know, I want to get with a big company that's going to give me great training and then later on I'm going to try to get to maybe a smaller company that's more high growth. Everyone's got their own strategies that just kind of happened to be mine. I just wanted to get that training from a big company and so I went with ConAgra Foods right out of business school so I interned there and then so I worked on stuff like Marie Callender's pot pies and healthy choice and stuff like that. So so frozen meals very big business, very big category and was great experience, met amazing people, got, you know, kind of cut my teeth. Not an easy experience, you know. It's kind of putting in your time, working hard, you're kind of at the bottom, at the bottom and you're kind of doing the grunt work and grinding it out. And then after five years I thought, okay, frozen foods good, but it's kind of it's big, it's good, but it's it's kind of flat. You know, at least at the time it was kind of slow growth. And so I said, well, what, what? Where's an opportunity where I could go a little bit more high growth and I wound up getting into organic and natural foods and went to white wave foods, which was silk, almond milk and horizon organic milk and stuff, and I just saw a really big growth opportunity there. And after a couple of years there the Dan and yogurt company wound up buying that division and so then I worked for Dan and for a while so after so now it's been you know 12 years and I had felt like I had gotten kind of the big company kind of credibility, training, kind of new at least to it as best you could knew what I was doing in the marketing world. And so that said, okay, now now I'm interested in going a little bit smaller, maybe something more high growth, growth where I can get a piece of the action and and maybe make kind of put my bigger stamp on you know, on what I'm doing.
Sam Owens:And so I went, actually did cauliflower foods, which was a cauliflower pizza crust company for a little while. What great experience company was in. A little bit more, I think. Actually now it's there's's, there's, there's two, there's call a power in Cali flower. I worked for Cali flower. I think that company is now they've actually closed so good business, but it was just really tough. We had our own manufacturing facility and we're making, you know, uh, you know, uh, fresh cauliflower cheese, very expensive to make, and so in the process I kind of saw, I kind of read between the lines that this is going to be a tough business. But I loved that it was small, I loved the people I was working with.
Sam Owens:And so it was at that point that a friend from business school who runs Frazzle called me and said, hey, I just got a marketing question for you. What would you do about this or that? And I said, well, let's maybe talk about what if I worked for you. Uh, what would you do about this or that? And I said, well, let's maybe talk about what if I worked for you. I said, oh, that's interesting. And, uh, so we just got to talking and I.
Sam Owens:I, you know, kind of did a little Moonlight arrangement for them for a few months and it was good, and so now it's been over two years since I've been there and I'm awesome okay and no, that's.
Bob Goodwin:That's awesome. You and I share a lot in the marketing CPG arena which. I think will actually carry forward into what I suspect are some of the principles that we find in the book. And then, lastly and quickly, what do we find? You have four kids, so I probably already know the answer to the question what do we find you doing when you're not at work?
Sam Owens:Yeah, that's a great question. So yeah, four kids, two of them are teenagers, so you can imagine that. And so we spend time. We have an extended family cabin in West Yellowstone, Montana.
Bob Goodwin:That sounds terrible.
Sam Owens:Oh, I know, I was actually just there. Last week my son graduated high school. We took him on like a motorcycling and fishing trip and stuff. So we, first and foremost, we spend as much time as possible there as we can, and then, yeah, I'd say, the rest of it is going to gymnastics meets and volleyball games and, you know, doing all those, all those things where life just got super busy and crazy. But we love it, we love it.
Bob Goodwin:Cool, awesome. Well, that was so much fun, fun. I learned a few things along the way there, so that was, that was very cool, so thank you. So let's just kind of get right into it. You know what was the the, I guess, maybe. How did you get into career coaching? Yeah, I mean, that sounds like that's probably the extension of what. What made the book come about?
Sam Owens:yeah, as you know, in in, uh, cpg companies, big companies there's opportunities to get involved in recruiting and kind of training and stuff like that. You can kind of do extracurricular things, even you're expected to do extracurricular things. And I just had always had an interest in kind of the training element. I would train on data, data, storytelling and different marketing things and just became really interested in this training, speaking space, mentoring, coaching, and said you know what? I'd be interested in writing a book. And so I actually have a book before this, one that I self-published. It's called the Eight Career Skills you Didn't Learn in College and I liked.
Sam Owens:I wrote that book because I noticed all these things in corporations that were making people successful that I never learned in college, like how do you deal with a tough boss, or how do you navigate, managing other people, or telling a great story or giving a great presentation. So I wound up writing this book. I tried to get it published traditionally and the agents said well, you don't really have much of an audience, you know so, and that's that's. A lot of times, what they care about most is what's your platform, what's your audience, and and I think the book probably didn't hook people in in the same way that my new book did. And so I wound up publishing that book and then said well, I guess I'm going to just start building an audience as well. So I started posting on LinkedIn, getting into it Pretty soon.
Sam Owens:I was taking clients and I noticed that as I showed clients the book, there was a lot of energy around one chapter, which was the skill was called evolving, but it was about job interviews and resumes and stuff like that. That was getting a lot of interest and I thought to myself man, I wonder if I could do a book, just I wonder if I could take that chapter and just do a book on that. And what I found and I was concerned that it wouldn't fill up the whole book I thought, oh, it was just a chapter, you know. But as I got more into it, I realized that there is so much to the job interview. First of all, the stakes are so high, you know. Second of all, you can't outsource it. You know you can get a resume writer or something, but but there you just with a job interview. You're sitting down for 45 minutes and it's just you. There's no do-overs, they're nothing, it's just you. And so, with those kinds of stakes and that kind of stress and anxiety.
Sam Owens:I thought, man, there's something really interesting here and so I created this title, which is what most of my clients kind of expressed to me in our first meeting, which is I hate this, this is the worst. And I thought, man, what if I could create a book out of this that shows the system I use and be useful. So that's kind of the journey and you know, just kind of one thing led to another. That's how I got to this book and where it is. And then HarperCollins wound up being interested in it and picked it up and it launched yesterday.
Bob Goodwin:Yay, well, congratulations. So we're recording this on what is today, june, the. Wednesday the 5th the 5th, so June the 5th. So congratulations, that's awesome, thank you, thanks. So let's just sort of kind of start off with, at a very high level, what's the basic principle, what are the principles that you want somebody to pull from this?
Sam Owens:Yeah, I think if I would start at the main, if someone says, all right, let's talk about job interviewing, because what people usually ask me is what's the one thing I can do to stand out in an interview. You know, if I go to speak to college students or something, what's the one thing? And the answer I give they usually don't like which is the one thing is everything. There is no one thing there. It's kind of like a Kung Fu Panda. You know the big reveal at the end where Poe is trying to get the secret sauce from his dad the noodles and he goes there is no secret ingredient, there is no secret sauce. And and so if there's one thing that I would, that I want to get across, is that interviewing is a learned skill and that it is a matter of practice. And most people believe that interviewing is like well, I'm pretty charismatic, I'm pretty good with people, I'm sure I'll be fine, and what I've learned is charisma is great and it's a leg up and it helps as a start, but by no means does that mean you're going to be the best interviewer of all your competition in a competitive interviewing environment, and so that's kind of the first thing I lay out is say hey, sorry, I hate to break it to you, but you're gonna have to prepare for 10 hours for your next interview, and so that's probably the first, the first principle, and then after that, the book lays out a step by step process for preparation, even provides a checklist on things that you need to do.
Sam Owens:You know one is one. One would be, for example, what I call get inside information, which is terrible in finance. You know you don't want to. You don't want to get inside information in the financial world, but in job interviewing, if you do it right, it's actually a really good thing. It actually helps people, it actually impresses companies, and so I want people to, you know, put away the laptop, put down the phone and actually, you know, put down their smartphone, but actually hop on a phone and talk to people or ask to take people to lunch to actually understand what's going on at these companies and get the information they need to do.
Sam Owens:Well, the next phase would be you know I kind of go into here's how you craft your power stories and your power examples. Don't try to anticipate you know a thousand different questions, bucket your answers or your stories into different categories based on the job description and make sure when you go into that interview you know, okay, I got these 10 stories that I can draw from. That are just amazing. And then after that I go into very specific question types and just kind of get into it the introductory question, the behavioral question, the case question.
Bob Goodwin:Okay, let's go through some of this stuff.
Sam Owens:Yeah, let's do it.
Bob Goodwin:So, first of all, you know, on the preparation, like amen and you know but I was on the phone with a client confidence that you're going to exude because you know you prepared is like going to do you a tremendous amount of good. It's going to give you clarity and peace of mind in the middle of, as you said, this very high stakes conversation that you're having so massively agree with that. And then on the stories again, this is what I love about our community is, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of crap advice, but there's a lot of really high quality people like you out there that are what I teach and what I believe are the right things. So you don't need a hundred answers for a hundred questions. You need a playlist of like 10. The trick is is knowing the attributes of those different stories and how to kind of shape them to the situation.
Bob Goodwin:I know we'll get into this in a minute, but just that idea of, dear listener, you don't need 100 stories for 100 questions. Dear listener, you don't need 100 stories for 100 questions. That's right. You need a core list of questions.
Bob Goodwin:That's right, and stories that you can repurpose to meet the need of the individual that you're talking to.
Sam Owens:That's right. Small tweaks in the moment.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah. So let's just kind of get down to the first thing that somebody gets asked. I know you've got a whole thing on this. I can't wait for this. Is Sam, so great to meet you? Thanks so much. Have a seat, it's great to have you in today. So yeah, like you know, I've seen your resume and everything. But tell me about yourself. I'd love to hear about you.
Sam Owens:Yes, that's right. This is the introductory question, right, whether it's phrased as tell me about yourself, walk me through your resume, why are you here? It's all the same thing. They're all asking the same thing. If they could ask what they really wanted to ask, it would be tell me why, in three minutes, why you are the perfect person for this job and why this is going to be the best conversation of my day, because I can stop interviewing people which I don't want to do, by the way, because it's not core to my job and tell me why I can just be like yes, thank goodness, I don't have to do this anymore, because I can just take this person. That's what they would ask. They might throw in and please do it quickly because I'm in a hurry they might throw that in too, but instead they say tell me about yourself. And I think one mistake people make is they assume that this is just a warm up question. You know, oh well.
Sam Owens:I'm, I like long walks on the beach and I'm, you know, whatever you know like. Let's just warm up and get to know each other. And I I think that this question is time. It's game on, it's OK. This is my opportunity to really demonstrate three things One, that I have relevant experience for this position. Two, that I excel at what I do. So in my prior positions I didn't just have relevant experience, but I actually was a high performer. And three, that I'm really interested in this job.
Sam Owens:And I think, if you can do those three things in the first three to four minutes, I think you're in great shape. And the way you do that is you start by walking through the experiences of your resume, highlighting the ones that are the most important to the job description, and as you do that, you weave in a couple of things Maybe that's and then I was selected to run this project, or I was promoted, or then I was given more responsibility, or or, and then, or then I saved the company this money. You weave in certain results to show, okay, this person doesn't just have the responsibility, but this person is, I can tell, this is, this is a high performer, this person is good. And then, after you walk through the experience, then you need to almost weave this, this, this story that all the stars have aligned to make this thing just the perfect fit. You know you can talk about why you're so interested in the company, whether it's, you know, and you know I love my current job, but there are certain things that I'm not getting that this company I know will provide and that's why I'm so interested.
Sam Owens:But you want to weave this story that makes it look. You know, it's almost like if you if you make a crude comparison to dating you want to, you want to show that you're good for them, but you also want them to feel like you know that you really want to be with them as well. You know there's that give and take Right, and you want them to walk away thinking, ok, I think this person actually would, would take this offer if I, if I got it. So it's a lot to ask in the first three minutes, but I think if with practice it can be done and it can set the tone for the rest of the interview.
Bob Goodwin:How do we do that, though, in a way that isn't rambling, because that's something that so many candidates struggle with? That's right. But I have to tell you everything right now, because I might forget it. Or, if I don't say it now, like I blew my. How do you do that without rambling?
Sam Owens:So, of the 10 hours that I recommend, half of that is practice. You know, some of it's getting inside information, some of it's whatever, but half of that is practice. And the reason is that we think and I use this example in the book, which is is hitch, there's this, if you've seen it, there's this scene where, where, where hitch Will Smith is teach he's the date doctor and he's teaching Albert Brenneman. Uh, kevin, kevin James had a dance. And he says all right, let's review, like your dancing skills. And he goes ah, it's all right, I got that, it's fine. And he's like, no, what do you mean? You got that? He's like I have to see it. And then Kevin James, you know, starts dancing and of course it's a total disaster and it's like you know, he slaps them and stuff. But that scene is, it's like one of the best scenes ever, but it it.
Sam Owens:I think it applies so much to job interviewing, because there's so many times you think, all right, yeah, I understand that conceptually, so I probably could do that, but with practice and you actually do it, you start, even when you're saying it, you start to think to yourself okay, this isn't coming out as good as I thought it would.
Sam Owens:I'm not, I am, I am rambling, I'm not doing as well, and so my thing is everyone does that. Just do that in your practice session, and then you won't have to ramble and feel that regret right as you're interviewing, which I felt before. You know. I felt like, as I'm speaking in my mind, I'm thinking I should have practiced this, I should have practiced this because I'm rambling, and so, yeah, I think I I've seen people really tighten it up with just a little practice and feedback, whether it's with a coach or even with someone just a friend or something. Just having an accountability source that they can practice with improves. I mean, in my clients, the difference I see between mock interview one and mock interview two is like they're like 90% there, just by just by doing that.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, it's such great advice. And when I was reading the book and came to that section, I'm like, yes, thank you so much. Because even me, like when I did my very, very first podcast, I was freaked out just on being able to say hi, my name is Bob Goodwin, president and founder of Career Club. Welcome to the first episode of Career Club Live. I literally walked around my neighborhood like for an hour just saying what was really like 15 seconds. Yeah, I needed to hear myself say the words, that's right.
Bob Goodwin:And that's the difference because, like, let's say that I've got my stories written out Right and I call this humming is OK, and then yeah, Uh-huh yeah. Yeah, ok, I got this and say no, that is. That is not practicing.
Bob Goodwin:That's called reading, which is very different, and you're a very good reader, but you've got to hear yourself say the words, and where you start to stumble and you go god, that was stupid. You know, let me press rewind and start over, because, as you, you say and again, this is just, interviews are game day, there is no do over. And so when you can hear yourself say something that was clumsy, let me try that again. Well, do that in front of somebody who's not going to hire you, or maybe hire you.
Sam Owens:Yeah, I love that concept of humming. That's funny. Yeah, I totally know what you mean. You're like, oh yeah, okay, you run it through in your mind and you think it's fine. And then it's like, well, actually, when you're sitting there and there's already tension tension cause you're in an interview it feels different, you know.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, um, what do you find this is, I think, so deep, at the root of why people don't interview well, which is fundamentally a lack of confidence? Yeah, help us kind of understand your thoughts on that and I think we know some of it because I think we just said it but how to build confidence so that I actually feel good about this?
Sam Owens:Yeah, chapter one is yeah is convince your harshest critic. Convince your harshest critic, which is you, you're your harshest critic. And the way to build it. I mean I always say like I wish I had some sort of meditation technique for you or something that would be easy. But I found that true confidence only comes on the other side of hard practice and just getting after it. That's where real confidence comes. Sometimes people say, well, I'm not going to be as confident if I practice because, like that, and I say well, being yourself is an interesting concept because I mean I could be my, the self that yelled at my kids last night to go to bed. I could be that self that's still myself. So I kind of say, how about your best self, how about your most practiced self? And so I think there's a couple elements here.
Sam Owens:Obviously we talked about practice, but in the book I talk about confidence myths, uh, or, or job interview myths, or what I call BITs, bad interview thoughts, uh, which are these, these things that you tell yourself, that kind of destroy confidence, that aren't necessarily true. One of them might be hey, you know, interviewing is mostly for extroverts. I'm an introvert, so it's just harder for me. It's like. Well, that's not true Introverts. Introverts can be very good, if not better than extroverts at interviewing. It really doesn't have anything to do with it, it's about practice Another myth, you know. Oh, job interviewers make up their mind in the in the first couple of minutes, so I don't really need to prepare beyond that, you know whatever.
Sam Owens:Like well, that's not, that's not true, that's been, that's kind of repeated, but that's not really actually the data doesn't even support that. Some do, but the majority of job interviewers actually make up their mind in the first 15, 30 minutes and so you really should practice beyond that. So there's all these myths and things that we kind of tell ourselves that destroy confidence. So I think busting those is probably the first step and then saying all right time to practice.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, for me, building on what you're saying, is, confidence is not the same as cocky and it's not the same as arrogant. That's right, I think sometimes people miss here confident. Most of the clients and maybe this is just the current job environment that we find ourselves in or whatever are significantly lacking in confidence.
Bob Goodwin:And there's the, which is basically self-belief and you know when. This is branding and it's core, which is what are your convictions, what do you actually believe is true? And you laid out some things that aren't true. But the candidate needs to know what she really believes, that she's good at, that she cares about, that she can excel at and just present that. But you have to do the work on the front end to know kind of what your brand pillars are, and then whether that resonates or doesn't resonate, it's kind of on the interviewer. But as long as you are presenting your best self with what you believe is true about you, what you're passionate about, what you're proficient at, where you excel, where you want to take your career to the next level, then you're going to genuinely convey that. And when we do that, we sit up straighter, we modulate differently, we smile more, our eyes are more open and the way I say it is the beautiful thing about confidence is it's contagious. When you believe, you make me believe.
Bob Goodwin:That's right, and so much of this is in your head. It is Right, and that's what I loved about. What you were sharing in your book is, again, this notion of confidence, but confidence can be earned, right and I think, as you say, through preparation. So let's use that as a segue to get into basically stories and power examples. Can you talk to us what you mean by that?
Sam Owens:Yes, the idea behind power examples is, first and foremost, a careful study of the job description. People sometimes don't realize what a goldmine the job description is. It's basically telling you the types of skills they're looking for, hence the types of questions they're going to ask. And so when I am preparing for a job or helping a client, always I ask for the job description and I can pick out, usually pretty quickly OK, you're going to be asked a strategic thinking question. You're going to be asked a question about how you manage details. You're going to be asked a question about your leadership style, right. And so, if you can do that, first you write those down and you have six or seven skills that you say, ok, these are the things they're trying to assess. And you have six or seven skills that you say, okay, these are the things they're trying to assess. Then you have a start on what stories that you want to develop.
Sam Owens:Okay, I want to do two leadership examples. Two times I demonstrated leadership. Now I want to do two times where I showed analytical ability and I want to do two times where I did this, and pretty soon you have where I did this and pretty soon you have you know about 10 kind of examples and that serves as, like, the foundation for what you're going to talk about and the stories you're going to tell. You don't have to at this stage yet, you know, fully flesh them out. We talk about that in another chapter, which is creating. You know I call them spar stories and we can talk more about that, but but this is the foundation, where it takes, you know, half hour to an hour to say, all right, I can think about these different experiences and now I got 10 kind of power examples, power stories that I can build from.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, and what makes?
Sam Owens:him power. What do you mean by power? It's your best stuff, you know. It's like okay, yeah, I can give you 20 examples of of when I demonstrated leadership, but these two really just, they just seem to kind of nail it for the job interview. Like these are the ones. And I say power because because the temptation is not to eliminate the other 18, but you really should eliminate the other 18. Remember, you got 45 minutes. They're going to ask you one, maybe two questions about leadership. It's like play the hits, you know, like you know.
Bob Goodwin:Sam, I'm bragging. This makes me feel like I'm bragging. I'm very uncomfortable doing it.
Sam Owens:I know, you know. You know let's just address that head on what I tell people. When they say I feel like I'm bragging, I say look, it's not bragging if you are telling a story based on facts. You know, there's a big difference between saying I am a great leader and telling a story with facts that just lets them that the only conclusion they could come away with is that you're a great leader. I mean, it's just facts at this point, right, and so that's. Another reason for practice is because you can basically walk them through a story that almost takes you out of it. I mean, you're the star of the story, but you're just telling the story. So you're not saying, oh, you know, I'm so great and I'm this, and that You're just telling the story and in the end they're thinking, yeah, this person really did do that. Therefore they're a great leader really did do that.
Bob Goodwin:Therefore, they're a great leader. Is there this? Probably? I'm going to ask this question really clumsily. You know we've got a resume right and our resume in theory. He's got bullet points on it that you know. I was in this role and I accomplished X, Y, Z at this role. Shouldn't that be the foundation for a lot of?
Sam Owens:these stories? Yeah, it definitely can be. I actually think too that when I go over resumes with people, I also craft a resume based on the job description. So I don't really like just hey, here's my boilerplate resume and I blast it out to. I don't like the shotgun approach. It's like, look, here are the three companies I want to work with and I'm on the phone and I'm crafting a resume specifically for that company. I think just the hit rate and the success rate is so much more and the answer is yes. The resume, if crafted right, really goes hand in hand. You're kind of developing your power stories as you're crafting the resume for this particular job and that's what we tell people.
Bob Goodwin:It's like this is a discussion guide for the conversation you want to have.
Sam Owens:That's right Wow.
Bob Goodwin:Sam, I see that you tripled sales at. Frazzle by doing that, so tell me more about that.
Sam Owens:Oh, thank you so much for asking.
Bob Goodwin:I wonder why you asked it. Maybe because I wrote it down for you to ask yeah.
Sam Owens:I spoon fed it to you, exactly, exactly.
Bob Goodwin:Okay, exactly Okay. So you mentioned SPAR and I think most people would be familiar with some version of CAR PAR STAR.
Sam Owens:That's right. Tell me about SPAR. Well, I like so it stands for Situation Problem Action Result. I was taught the STAR method, which is Situation Task Action result, and I don't want to be too finicky or picky with acronyms, but the reason I say problem is that one of the things I see is people tell their stories is that they don't create drama or tension in their stories. And so when you say task well, I was asked to build an inventory system. You know that's a task. If you want to create a problem, you say we were having major problems with inventory and I was asked to build an inventory system. That had never been done before. I was a lowly intern and they asked me to do it. Now I'm interested Whoa, how is Sam going to solve this major problem? And so I like the idea of creating.
Sam Owens:You know, overall, with this spar story, what you're doing is you're taking them back to a specific point in time and, honestly, imagine playing a movie clip for them, like pressing play on a movie clip that they can watch, and the reason I say that is that many people don't are not specific enough when they ask these questions. Tell me about a time you demonstrated leadership. Oh, I think leadership's great and I have an open door policy and I'm, you know, leader this or that. So no, we're not answering the question here. You need to say sure, let me tell you about a specific, exact time. You know, quote, unquote, play the Disney movie that has a hero in it, has drama, has tension, the hero did amazing things and then everything worked out amazingly well. And so that's why I focus on the spar, because I want them to know this should be kind of a little bit of a dramatic story that you're telling.
Bob Goodwin:I love that, because people respond really really well to stories. We remember stories, yes. Well, one thing get my thoughts collected here for a sec is when somebody asks a very broad question, Sam. So you could. I don't know if I'm going to give a good example, but maybe it's.
Bob Goodwin:you know you're a marketer and this is the social media is part of their marketing strategy. And Sam, tell me how you've worked with social media. Oftentimes what we find with clients is they were asked a really broad question that could go in a bunch of different directions, and what they do is they try and give an encyclopedic answer to that really broad question because they don't want to leave anything out.
Bob Goodwin:And we would talk about asking a clarifying question, and I think you probably know where I'm going how do we get people to kind of get to the question behind the question? Yeah great Good.
Sam Owens:You know, when someone says tell me about, you know your experience with social media. I think that that is very broad and that could justify a sure yeah, I have a fair amount of experience with social media. Are there any particular areas that you're most interested in that you'd like me to highlight? You know, so you kind of can ask a question like that and that you'd like me to highlight? You know, so you kind of can ask a question like that. Sometimes they're asking a question but they're actually just kind of, they're actually just kind of bad at interviewing. You know, hey, are you a good leader? Okay, well, yes, I am, as a matter of fact, you know. So sometimes we can actually guide the interview ourselves and take charge.
Sam Owens:Tell me about your leadership style is is you can reframe that question to be tell me about a time when you demonstrated leadership. You know, if they say tell me about a time you demonstrated leadership, you know that you got a spar story coming up, tell me about your leadership style. I think you can still use the spar format. Hey, great, yeah, I'd be happy to. In fact, maybe one of the ways I can tell you about it is to give you an example of how I think I've demonstrated leadership and some of the principles. So you're you're still this is an example of you're being asked a question about leadership and now it's your turn to kind of tweak it and almost think like a politician right, you want to answer the question, but you also kind of want to say what you want to say. And so I think sometimes, when they ask vague questions like that, there are ways to recognize. Okay, I know what they're asking and I'm going to give them this story and I'm going to answer it in this way.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah. So one just thing that we have found successful is you know, tell me about you know your experience working with data Okay, do you? You know that can. About you know your experience working with data? Okay, do you? You know that can mean a few things, sam. Do you mean first party data? Third party data? Do you mean integrating data sets or actually predictive modeling of data? So the way I just asked the question demonstrated my expertise. Yeah, that's great Pillars of data.
Bob Goodwin:And then they go, then they go, oh well what I meant was we can pick one and then this is so common. Is then they'll go? The reason I'm asking is we have a big problem with integrating multiple data sets and we've really been struggling and then they're going to go give you, as you say, just like in a job description. They're going to completely tee it up for you. So you can crush your answer to be relative to what it is that they're solving for.
Sam Owens:That's great. I love that. Now you've clarified and you have basically the playbook to where now you can tell your story, but weave in in that story how it applies to this situation that they're basically the playbook to where now you can tell your story, but weave in in that story how it applies to this situation that they're dealing with Exactly.
Bob Goodwin:So one of the things that you talk about in here is dealing with difficult. If you were a tree, sam, what would you be, you know? And just like these weird, which I think is also back to being a bad interviewer, but but but like when you're just sort of thrown with these, I mean it could be an illegal question, just a wacky question Like how do you coach clients on what to do when it's like where the heck did that come from?
Sam Owens:Yeah, exactly when possible. You want to bring it back to your qualifications for the job where possible. So if someone says, you know, if you, if you were an animal, what animal would you be, you know, which is just a weird question, part of it, I think, is they're just trying to see if you can be poised in a situation like that and you say, oh, interesting, it's okay to pause. You know, I think I would be probably a golden retriever because I think I am kind of diligent and hardworking and I think I actually do a pretty good job of collaborating and getting along well with others, you know. So. So I think if you can answer the question but then just provide a little bit of why behind it, that's kind of related to the job.
Sam Owens:I think that's a win on these, on these types of questions. Sometimes it's just like a creative question like hey, how many times can you, how would you market this pen, you know. So they ask that and you're like, all right, well, here we go. You know, and I think you just kind of need to. You know this is particularly for marketing interviews you just kind of need to let loose, all right. Well, first of all, it could be a knife, you know, and it can be concealed and you can just stab someone you know right there or whatever. The second thing you know you can just kind of Sam Owens pin murderer.
Sam Owens:Uh, and I think that that, uh, if you can, I think sometimes they just want you to to just kind of play along, you know, and you can almost have a little bit of confidence in that All right, stupid questions Sounds like I can give some stupid answers to like, let's go. You know, I think there's a little bit of that uh attitude as well with the legal questions, that this one can be tricky because, um, it's very contextual, you want. It's not fair for someone to ask an illegal question but at the same time sometimes they don't even know they're doing it. It's an honest mistake, and so it could. It could be a mistake to say, excuse me, that question is illegal, you know, or something like that. Or really put them on the spot, even though you're technically right, you might get what you want, but not get what you want. You know what I mean. So. So I think there's a, there's a, you know. Someone says where are you from? Well, okay, that's, I guess that's kind of an illegal question, you know. But it's like to me. I just say I'm from Walnut Creek, california, you know, no big deal. Now I get it if this is me from california interviewing for an american job if you're from dubai and there's some complications there, like I totally understand. This might be easier for me than some people.
Sam Owens:The point I'm trying to make is, with illegal questions, I think. First, you want to be as as nice as you can. If someone says, are you married? And be like, oh, is there a? The first thing I'd say are like oh, is there a? The first thing I'd say are you married? Oh yeah, is there a? Just curious, is there a reason behind the question? Is there something you want to know or something like that? And well, just wondering if you're married? Yeah, I just, I think actually don't mean to be offensive. I think that question is actually illegal. They're actually trying to pry on something that's unfair. Many times, though, they're just asking something that they kind of don't know is illegal, and if it's not a big deal to you, I just I coach my clients, just answer it and just move on yeah, so.
Bob Goodwin:So I think that back on wacky questions, which is hopefully you know more common than illegal questions, of course. Um, getting back to like knowing what your brand is, you know you're a political candidate. What's your platform, what are some of the main planks of you as a candidate? And then exactly what you did with the Golden Retriever example. Yeah, it's like well, I'm good at collaborating, right, I get along with a lot of different kinds of people. You know kind like whatever those I knock stuff over with my tail, yeah, yeah.
Sam Owens:I shed my hair. I do shed a lot.
Bob Goodwin:But when you can, you've got a basis for it and it's not just like I don't know. And if, when you, there is a poise element to that that I think that people are looking for, I know, like how many ping pong balls are on a 747. I think how many piano tuners are in Chicago like they are looking for, can you? I don't care what the right answer is, I care how you start to sort of think about something. How would you start to frame a problem out like that? So you do need to kind of, you know, start to think about, you know something like that, but when you know your brand, and then you can say if I was a tree or a flower or an animal or whatever, it does give you a basis this what is your feeling?
Bob Goodwin:Okay, when somebody at the end of the interview if it hasn't been what's, hopefully it's been somewhat dialogue, you know it has just been this interrogation you know kind of this parent-child. You know what other questions, mom, do you have? Sure but you know what questions you have for me. What do you encourage people to start kind of asking back in an interview?
Sam Owens:Yeah great. There are kind of two extremes, to start off, that I think we should avoid in this. The first one is asking questions for the sole purpose of impressing them, and the reason that I don't think you want to ask it just for that is sometimes that takes you into a space where you're kind of asking some question that's that they don't really know the answer to or that makes you you're trying to look smart, but they're like I don't know. Like you know, asking an HR screener. I noticed in your 10k financial statement that there was this line item what do you think about that? And they're like, well, now they're on the spot. They're like, well, I don't know, I'm in HR, like what, what you know, I don't know, uh, but good job.
Bob Goodwin:Thanks for making me feel dumb, I do.
Sam Owens:Yeah, good job for reading the 10 K, I guess, but but thanks for making me feel stupid. Uh, the other, the other extreme would be, on the other end, like asking questions for just purely selfish reasons, like hey, like how long would it take for me to get a raise here? Do you think like how fast could I get promoted?
Sam Owens:Or you know, like stuff, let's be honest, we all kind of want to know those questions. There are the answers to those questions, but maybe ask some of that to like after you have an offer, you know, or something like that. So what I usually say is ask a question that you are genuinely interested in knowing that the person is uniquely qualified to answer. That's related to the job, and so you know. Hey, can you talk to me? Just talk to me about how you feel about the culture of your department is and what successful people are typically like. How do people excel here? Can you tell me about the next three years and what things you're most excited about and what things that are you know the next three years and what things you're most excited about and what things that are are you know? Do you think your biggest?
Sam Owens:challenges, stuff like that where they're like oh, you know, interesting, I'm talking about my business, but it also applies to you, cause if you work on this business, this is something you're going to eventually want to know, and so those can be rich discussions. And then just a housekeeping item, and they said what questions you have for me and there's one minute left. I always do a time check. Hey, I do have some questions, but I want to be respectful of your time. How are we looking here? And they'll say, oh yeah, I got a hard stop. Or they'll say, no problem, yeah Well, I got time. It's always a good thing to do.
Bob Goodwin:What do you think about asking for specific feedback? Specific?
Sam Owens:feedback? Yeah, good question. I think this one depends on the vibe of the interview. There's no set answer.
Sam Owens:There's been times when I've interviewed where I've said hey, I just want to get your sense on how you feel like I'd be a fit in this organization you know, or opportunities that you think you know I. I think one way to do this also, instead of asking for feedback, because sometimes they're like, well, I don't want to give that feedback yet, I want to digest, I. I kind of like one way to get at this is to say hey, I just want to make sure. First of all, I'm super interested in this and so I just want to make sure that I've been able to answer all your questions. Are there any concerns or things that I can clarify before we finish here?
Sam Owens:That's a way for them maybe not to give feedback, but at least an opportunity. Opportunity for them to kind of, if there's any lingering doubts, just be like well, yeah, there's. Uh, I think the one thing I would want to talk about is this or they'll say, no, no, I'm good. I mean, it's up to them, right, but I like doing something like that because it feels a little less confrontational than be like all right. What feedback do you have?
Bob Goodwin:Well, I'm glad that you jumped to that, because I wasn't sure where you would go with this. So you know, there's a, there's a model that says basically, sam, I've really enjoyed our time together. I'm super pumped about this opportunity. I guess I'm curious from your side what gives you the most confidence based on?
Sam Owens:what you've learned about me so far, that I would be a good fit in this role.
Bob Goodwin:Gosh, you've marketed great brands, You've got big company experience, You've worked in small environments, you know how to be scrappy, so yeah, and I think you'd be a great culture fit. Yeah, On the other, now this is a salesperson in me On the other side. Are there any concerns or anything that would make you pause for my fit for this role? Yeah, I mean ideally. Look we.
Sam Owens:I wish you had more automotive experience you know, but um yeah, other than that, you know, I think you did great.
Bob Goodwin:So just kind of on a relative basis. Based on on that, you know how would you sort of net that out, kind of the positives versus the automotive thing. We've got a thousand people here that know about cars. You're uniquely qualified here. You asked me a question, I answered it. Or I could say I wish you had more automotive experience and you go. I am so sorry. At Ogilvy I was on our Ford team. That was on page two and a half of my resume, but I've actually worked two years in the car business as a salesperson, and this is a sales call that's what an interview is.
Sam Owens:It is a sales call.
Bob Goodwin:I want to know the objections because you're thinking them. Once that Zoom window closes or that conference room door closes, you're not going to get the feedback. What we hear from clients, I don't know. I think it went pretty well Like I got on with Sam. He's a super nice guy.
Bob Goodwin:We laughed a lot and you know I think it went pretty well. Yeah, but what I didn't know was Sam really wishes I had more automotive experience, because he thinks it's really important and he doesn't want to take the time to teach me that industry and all the nuances of that right, yeah, yeah, it went really well, but I didn't get the job.
Sam Owens:Uh, why?
Bob Goodwin:do you think that is him? I don't know, because I thought we got on really well yeah, and the job description of me looked like a great fit yeah and and so what ends up happening is that either there's a clarification actually I do have auto from my time at Ogilvy and I thought, oh shit, I learned that, didn't know that or you can reframe it on a relative basis. How important is that against? You know how you kind of think about fit for this role.
Sam Owens:Yeah, I really like that. It's really important, bob.
Bob Goodwin:You know if I'm being honest with you. I've got a strong, least I know, right, at least I know. Or they can say again hey, it's number four out of five things. It's not the most important thing, but it's a thing. Okay. Well, at least I've got, you know, some notion of how important that was. If I don't get the role yeah, that's great's great, that.
Sam Owens:I really like that. This strikes me also as something that would really benefit with practice. The way you solicit feedback in a way that's not off putting but in a way that continues to enhance the conversation can be a very positive thing, but I think practice is the key on this one.
Bob Goodwin:It's got to be in your words, that's the thing. It's got to feel natural coming out of your mouth. You've talked about scripting earlier. If you feel scripted, you're going to be awkward, it's going to sound awkward, it's not going to be great, but if you can say it in a way that sounds like you, then it can be really effective for going out some stuff. Okay, is there anything that we haven't talked about? That? This? I would be completely remiss, as your podcast host, of not asking you.
Sam Owens:Okay, the only thing I would say, the only thing I'd want to say, is this it's a weird economy right now in that unemployment figures look good. You know politicians are saying, hey, everything's great. But I'm actually seeing, particularly with more I don't even know if white collar is the right term anymore, but just more executive kind of office type positions. I'm seeing actually kind of a mixed bag. I think there's companies that are holding back a little bit and just some interesting trends that are hard to kind of tease out, and I think there are people who are discouraged out there.
Sam Owens:The one thing I would just want to say to everyone is that they will. If you're looking for a job and you're discouraged, you will get a job, and I'm positive you will get a job. It might not happen tomorrow, as fast as you want, but every single client I've worked with and just people I've observed who are like, oh, it's been so hard, they wind up getting jobs, and so that was just the one thing I just want to share with the listeners is that it's going to work out, you're going to get a job.
Bob Goodwin:Yes, Thank you for saying that. You know, I think that so much of this is around encouragement. Now, what you're teaching are real skills. So it's one thing to get pumped up and you got this tiger right but like learning real skills, like you're teaching people in your book, which is phenomenal but there is this encouragement piece. I wrote a post yesterday on LinkedIn that said no doesn't mean never, it just means not yet. That's great. And people need to hear that because there's so much I'd say. The road to yes is littered with no.
Bob Goodwin:It can be so discouraging for people. So I just really appreciate it. And you're right. This is a particularly weird time that companies are very reluctant because they overhired, which led to all the layoffs, and now they're being more cautious.
Sam Owens:Yes.
Bob Goodwin:And they don't have enough talent acquisition people. So the processes are slow and kludgy and people think it's them. I'm like it's not you, it's the process or the chaos, whatever it really is, but I appreciate it. So if people want to get I hate job interviews how do they and maybe reshape their mind on that how do they get a copy of the book?
Sam Owens:Yeah, so it's on Amazon, Target, Barnes and Nobles, Audible and if you have, I just I have Spotify premium. It's kind of you can listen to it. It's included in premium. I guess I didn't know it would be, but it is. I looked at it today. So there's lots of different ways you can get it. I did the audio book, which is a fun kind of wild experience. So it's my voice on it. Oh, you were the reader, I was a reader. Right now on Amazon, I think the audio book is a little bit cheaper than the actual print book, but so, yeah, that's. That's the first way to get it. And then the other way to just reach me is just connect me on LinkedIn. You know I'm on LinkedIn all the time and that's awesome.
Bob Goodwin:So that's the other thing that I'll share with people is please follow Sam on LinkedIn. You know, like I said, there's some dodgy advice out there and then there's some great advice and, sam, you're one of the folks who are out there sharing really good advice with people and encouragement which, again, I think is at least as important. So I love the book. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us today.
Sam Owens:Thanks so much for having me, Bob. It's such a great conversation.
Bob Goodwin:Awesome. So again, we really encourage you to get I Hate Job Interviews by Sam Owens and follow him on LinkedIn. And again, I'm Bob Goodwin with Career Club. Thank you so much for investing a few minutes of your day and I hope to see you on an upcoming Thursday at one o'clock Eastern.
Sam Owens:So thanks again, Sam Appreciate it.
Bob Goodwin:Thanks, ok, cheers, bye, bye.
