Career Club Live with Bob Goodwin
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Career Club Live with Bob Goodwin
Empathy in Action: Tracy Layney on Career Growth, Mental Health, and Building Supportive Work Cultures
What if your career path didn't have to be linear to be successful? Join us for an enlightening conversation with Tracy Layney, EVP and Chief HR Officer at Levi Strauss Company. Tracy shares her inspiring journey from humble beginnings in Houston, Texas, to becoming a prominent advocate for mental health and employee well-being. Learn how her personal experiences, like the emotional milestone of sending her son off to college, shape her professional perspective on fostering empathetic workplace cultures and supporting employees through various life stages.
Discover the critical importance of evaluating potential and fit in today’s evolving job market. Tracy delves into the value of embracing diverse experiences and saying yes to new opportunities, which can enhance skill sets in unexpected ways. Balancing hiring managers' needs for specific experience with the fresh perspectives that newcomers bring, she advocates for recognizing transferable skills and growth potential—even among interns. Tracy’s insights are a must-listen for anyone involved in hiring or career development.
Burnout is real, and Tracy gets candid about its impacts and the necessity of self-care. She highlights Levi Strauss' holistic approach to mental health and wellness, including partnerships with Thrive Global and Lyra, and the importance of expanded leave policies. Through personal anecdotes and professional wisdom, Tracy underscores the significance of fostering empathy in business culture, managing job transitions, and nurturing genuine passion in one's career. Tune in for a treasure trove of advice on maintaining resilience and compassion in both personal and professional lives.
Hi everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, president of Career Club, and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live. If you are not familiar with Career Club, we would encourage you to go to careerclub. We are just rolling out a new program on resilience radical resilience. It's tied to your True North values. We believe there's a very strong ROI case to be made to help your company become more productive, more effective, retain more employees and drive higher client satisfaction. So again, please check us out at careerclub Today.
Bob Goodwin:I am so happy to be welcoming our guests. We've got Tracy Laney, who is the EVP and Chief HR Officer at Levi Strauss Company. I bet you've heard of them. Tracy's a renowned leader in HR known for her commitment to mental health, employee well-being and creating an empathetic workplace culture. In this episode, she's going to share some insights on Levi Strauss' mental health initiatives, the evolution of their well-being programs and how empathy shapes leadership and company culture. Tracy also discussed strategies for navigating uncertainty and ensuring a supportive environment at all organizational levels. We're excited to hear from her. Tracy with that. Welcome, hi, bob.
Tracy Layney:So nice to be with you. Thank you so much for having me.
Bob Goodwin:It's so nice to see you. Last time I saw you we were in Chicago and you were going on vacation. I hope you had a great time.
Tracy Layney:I did. Yes, it's summertime, so always good to get away, and we'll talk more about that, because I do think taking time away is really important to mental health and staying refreshed and ready to come back. So happy to be back.
Bob Goodwin:No, awesome. So, as this I want to do, let's just help people get to know you a little bit. First, a few icebreaker questions, just a couple minutes. So, starting off, where were you born and raised? Where'd you grow up?
Tracy Layney:I grew up in Houston, Texas.
Bob Goodwin:Where's your accent?
Tracy Layney:It's long gone. I went to college in Philadelphia and I stayed a few years after college. So I always say, those seven years in Philadelphia killed whatever remnants of a Texas accent I had. But then in the late 90s I moved here to the San Francisco Bay Area, which I've managed to somehow stay in for the last 25 plus years. So California is now home, but but I am Texas at heart, for sure.
Bob Goodwin:Now, if you go back to Texas, can you fall into a draw?
Tracy Layney:A little bit. Yeah, certainly, when I'm around my family it'll come back, for sure very slightly. And my husband and I've been together since we would gosh. We've known each other since we were 18 and he actually remembers when I had a little bit of an accent and I used to say y'all. So there is even like proof in my house that someone that was you know this is a documented event.
Bob Goodwin:That's good. Well, you mentioned Philadelphia. Where'd you go to school?
Tracy Layney:I went to the University of Pennsylvania. So, uh, quaker through and through a go pen fighting Quakers oxymoron, but love it there you go now.
Bob Goodwin:You've mentioned your husband and we talked a little bit before we got started that you've got a son going to college. You mind just a little bit about your family sure?
Tracy Layney:so, yes, so I married my college sweetheart, jason, and yeah, we've been married 27 years together, for over 30, and, as I mentioned when I we were in our mid-20s, we moved here to the Bay Area and managed to stay here this whole time, which has been great. This is very much home, and we have one son who is 19 and is about to start his sophomore year at the University of Miami. So, yeah, we have a small family and we have a cat, so the cat's also. The cat might make an appearance, you never know. But yeah, we've managed to have this great life that we met, you know, getting college, and we are, you know. Now I sent our son off to college, which is hard to believe.
Bob Goodwin:There you go. Well, you're empty nesting. Is that going? So far, so good?
Tracy Layney:Yes, I mean it's hard.
Bob Goodwin:It's hard.
Tracy Layney:I don't know. You know if people you know, I think it's I think people start to talk about it more, but you know it's a huge life change. When you've had this, this person or people that you've been raising and are in your house and and your family dynamic changes and you want them to thrive, and he's thriving, which makes it much easier, but certainly it changes the family dynamic and it's it's a big, big life transition. I think it's one that you know maybe we don't talk enough about like a lot of life transitions. We talk about people having kids and then when there's kids launch, you know it's, it changes things, and so I think you know part of what I think about a lot in my role is how we support people at every life stage, and certainly this last year has been a huge transition for us.
Bob Goodwin:Well, and we'll get into this more when we start talking about mental wellness kinds of issues. But you know we talk about bringing your whole self to work. That's part of it, right, and you know we're going through life changes and so like, whether I want it or not, that's part of what's coming to work with me, not super quick, but do you mind kind of painting a picture of your career arc? You've, obviously you're somewhere near the pinnacle of your profession, but how did you get there?
Tracy Layney:Yeah, I mean I would definitely say it was not planned right. I think I, when I was in college, I had no idea I would be. I probably didn't even know what a chief HR officer was let's be honest, a lot of people don't so I was really lucky. I grew up in sort of a very working class household and was able to go to this amazing school in Pennsylvania and um, but I was an English major. I thought I was going to go to law school. Um, I briefly flirted with maybe becoming an English professor but certainly thought, okay, maybe law school. And then when I graduated I worked at a law firm and no offense to my lawyer friends in the world, I have many of those but I quickly realized that was not for me and I was really fortunate that someone I'd worked with actually the whole time I was at Penn I was a professor's research assistant and took all his courses he's still there actually at Penn Really referred me to this small consulting firm that specialized in organization and change strategy work and they were looking for someone to come and do a two-year analyst position. And it was just by you know, again a series of luck and events that I fell into this role and I absolutely loved it. I worked for the Center for Applied Research. They're still around, they are in Philadelphia and now also in Cambridge, massachusetts, and loved it, and the work was very much focused on organization strategy and I thought this is great, this is what I want to do. But it was a two-year position. You were then supposed to go off and go to grad school or do something different, and's.
Tracy Layney:When Jason and I decided to move to California, my mom had sort of settled out here, so we had a little bit of a landing spot and we came here and, um, you know, again, through a series of events, I eventually ended up at PricewaterhouseCoopers, like also in their organization and change strategy practice. I loved it. I did that for several years. I think consulting is a great way to start a career Actually, I advise young people on that a lot if they're considering that because you get to try a lot of different industries. You get to try a lot of different, sometimes, types of consulting. But I really fell in love with this idea of thinking through how you think about a talent strategy or an organizational strategy and how that supports the business strategy Right. So I did that for a couple of years at PwC, I actually was thinking about starting a family.
Tracy Layney:The one big downside of consulting, at least back then, was that it was a lot of travel, weekly travel, and that was. You know, that's hard when you're thinking about having children. And so I actually took my first internal role, believe it or not, at Levi Strauss. I followed a colleague internally inside the company and got to work on a large scale transformation technology implementation. I got to go work in Australia, which was really fun and we still call her ANZ, australian, new Zealand business and it was great. However, this was 2003, early 2004, and Levi's was in a lot of financial trouble. At the time. Business wasn't great and we had to make the hard decision to cancel the project I was working on.
Tracy Layney:And I got laid off from Ellis Co, levi's, rodson Co. But I tell that story a lot internally, even because I really believed if I hadn't been laid off from Levi's I would not be this chief HR officer now. And sometimes that happens I think that happens a lot, actually that when something bad happens it's certainly unexpected that it opens up doors that allow you to pivot. And so I found myself laid off. But Gap Inc you know the Gap, which is literally down the street from Levi's in San Francisco was hiring and I went to Gap and that was when I really pivoted into HR. So I'd really had this organization strategy background, which is amazing learning ground for HR specifically. But that was my pivot. And then I had this fantastic career 10 years at Gap Inc where I started as a senior manager. I left as a senior vice president supporting Old Navy.
Bob Goodwin:I got to work in international businesses.
Tracy Layney:I got to do HR for HR. I got to do all sorts of things and that 10-year span I had my son and then really had an amazing, amazing run. But I also got really burned out in my last role there and I made the really hard decision to leave the company just from pure burnout which we can talk more about because I talk quite openly about that as a significant mental health challenge and I took a sabbatical. I just said I have to get, I have to recover from this burnout and I took a sabbatical. My son was nine and I was worried I'd missed a lot of his childhood, especially my last year. And I was worried I'd missed a lot of his childhood, especially my last year, and I took a year.
Tracy Layney:And then you know, as often happens, I think, when you take time to focus on yourself, good things come and that's when I got my first chief HR officer role at Shutterfly, which is a great company focused on helping people share life's joy. I did that for five years, did a big acquisition there, took the company private. It's joy. I did that for five years, did a big acquisition there, I took the company private and then Levi's called and it felt very full circle right after having worked there many years before and I started in 2020, but I also started in March, march of 2020. And so you can imagine what was going on in the world then.
Bob Goodwin:And it's everything.
Tracy Layney:Exactly so. That's a little bit about me and the career I've had. That takes us up to date and yeah, I've been there, been at levi's almost four and a half years and certainly been an amazing time to be here and also a challenging time, as we've all been going through these last I think, as I promised you, this would be an organic conversation, so you've opened up a few doors down this hallway that I want to kind of go through.
Bob Goodwin:One is an unplanned career. You know what's your dream job? I don't know, like I don't know Right, and particularly for young people or parents of young people might be listening to this For me, just like you did, it's more a test for negatives. So you did the law thing like I don't think that's for me, but you haven't been to the buffet table of like what's available and then your professor did a huge favor for you and introduce you to something else. Well, that's cool, that resonates Right. And you kind of started going down a road that works. How would you counsel people with kind of nonlinear or, you know, kind of more portfolio careers?
Tracy Layney:I think a lot about this now, because I do counsel and coach a lot of young people and I have a young person right in my house who doesn't, you know, I think, as a lot of people in college they shouldn't know what they want to do yet. And I think we all know now that careers I mean I think the beauty of a long, I mean we all are going to work much longer because we can, and I think if you're doing great interesting work, we should and there should be lots of opportunities, right, I don't think it's linear. Plus, we all know that the jobs that are going to exist in five years don't even exist now, let alone 15 years and 20 years, right. So I think it's been for me it was more it has been sort of sensing the negatives, for sure, also sensing the positives, what really feels good. And I think the thing I did, that and I would coach others to do, is say yes a lot, because you know I did a very broad swath, because you know I did a very broad swath, but even in that sort of 10 year tranche gap that I probably changed roles or expanded a role or something about every 18 months to two years, right, I mean, because that's especially when you're at that stage of your career.
Tracy Layney:People come and say, well, can you take this on, or can you do this project, or would you go do that? And and I think the answer is, you know, say yes as much as you can, because then you learn, you learn. Okay, this is what jazz is me, this is what doesn't jazz me, this is, you know. I want to focus more here, I want to learn this more, and I think that's actually probably this to having a really fulfilling career, because I do think it's for most I mean, I don't even know if linear is, you know that common anymore? Maybe it never really was.
Tracy Layney:And so I think that there's so much opportunity to learn and grow and push yourself and challenge yourself and and think about different industries, think about different, different specialties. You know, I think there's just, there's so much opportunity and I think that for me it's been mostly what I would. Again, I, what I tell people is say yes and try new things, and nothing is one day. I'm for certain, nothing is forever, nothing is permanent. And nothing is one thing I'm for certain nothing is forever, nothing is permanent, and even things that you find aren't for you will certainly enhance your experience and your skill set.
Bob Goodwin:So, as you know, we work a lot with people in career transition and you know, I really would love to get your honest take on this. Is that, as much as we want to say non-linear? It seems like companies want people who've done this exact job before, they've been in this exact industry doing this exact thing for 20 years, which is sort of the antithesis of what we're talking about. How do you talk to hiring managers, the talent acquisition team, personally, how do you think about you know potential versus pedigree, I guess.
Tracy Layney:Yeah, I think it's. I think I mean, as somebody who you know, I understand and empathize where hiring managers are right. I do because what you're thinking about, you've got a job opening. Often there's nobody in the job. You're stressed out because you're probably doing that person's job or your team is doing that person's job right, or maybe you're trying to build new capability. That's also there's lots of reasons. Jobs are open and you need somebody yesterday, right, who can come in and hit the ground running and really knows what they're doing. So I get it.
Tracy Layney:I have a lot of empathy for wanting folks like understand why folks want people who've done something right. What I often, what I counsel them on, is, yes, you need to have some level of experience, some, and it depends, if you're hiring an entry level, you're going to have a lot, obviously a lot lower expectations. If you're hiring an executive, very different right. So you've got to look at it and say, okay, can this do? I think this person can do the job. Do they have the general you know, transferable skill set or direct skill set, et cetera right To be able to come in and do it and do they have the mindset to do it? Do they, you know? Have they shown that they can you know, especially as something is newer for them and they haven't necessarily checked all those boxes? Have they shown they can easily transfer you know, an experience, or they can are?
Tracy Layney:curious and can hit the ground running and in their own way, because they're just going to come in and understand. I mean, I think I think about sometimes, I mean people that I I love and we're just finishing up our internship summer, right, that like I love working with interns because they've never done any of these things most, most of the time, right, and it's amazing how much they come in and contribute in eight weeks, right, and that to me, is a good reminder for all of us. That like, if I can hire somebody who's like three years into college, who's never worked in a corporate environment, and they can come in and hit the ground running and deliver tremendous value on a project in eight weeks, then anybody can do that right. And so I think it really is about, you know, looking at sort of the person and what they've done and kind of how they think about the work and do they have a curious mind. You know, what work have they done that they're proud of?
Tracy Layney:I always ask that question in an interview, like what are you most proud of? And like love hearing people's answers to that, because that tells you a lot about them. And, of course, to have, do you think they can do the nuts and bolts of the job, sure, but I think, especially because, as we've talked about, work is gonna continue to change and so you really also want folks who are gonna be adaptable and really interested in continuing to grow their career and potentially take it in different directions. And I think, starting with that empathy for understanding what managers are solving for, but also reminding everybody that people, we all fall into this trap that there is no perfect candidate, perfect humans don't exist. And so, like, how do we get somebody who really you think can have a long runway of growth in the company as well as meeting the immediate need?
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, so, and you're right, like they they're stressed out, they've got work that needs to be done and yet, at the same time, you want people who are really interested in the job and want to grow in the job, right, and like they really want to sink their teeth into it. And, yeah, it's great having leaders like you, that kind of can, as you said, empathetically kind of help reframe this a little bit. I'd love to get your take One of the ways and you just gave me an idea. I speak in alliteration, tracy, so this is using P's, but when we're coaching clients on interviewing, I've been talking about three P's. There's proficiency Can you do the work? That's table stakes. Can you do the work? And, to your point, eight out of 10 of the things like we're OK, like we need to learn a couple other things.
Bob Goodwin:The second P is passion. Do you care about what we do, why we do, who we serve, some element of the company, the role, the mission that you're genuinely excited about, genuinely excited about? The third P is personality. You know, like, are you going to be somebody that will work well with others? Are you collaborative? You just, do you bring something to the team? Not, are you a good fit, because I think that's got a little bit of baggage. But are you a? You know, values, fit, cultural, ad, but you know, are there things about you that you're just going to be a good, a good person on the team? I just added a fourth P, though, based on what you were talking about, which is potential and potential to grow into the role and in some way that we can continue to build the business around. Does that model work for you, or what would you comment on that?
Tracy Layney:No, I think it's. I think it's a great model actually. I think, you know, we have the privilege we talk a lot about passion actually, because you know, levi's is an amazing company, right, an iconic brand, one of the most iconic brands in the world to be. You know, and I don't think I'm overstating that, I think the data would bear that out and you know, when folks want to come work with us, no matter what role, whether they're in human resources or they're actually designing, or they're in our storage where most of our employees work, you know, I think that what often we hear, either sort of unsolicited or we'll ask about it, is what is your Levi's story? People tend to have a Levi's story, right of like, of where they you know an affinity or some, how they think about sort of the iconic moments in our, in the world history that Levi's Rose is a part of, and so I think that very much comes through and we look for people who have that as well as a passion for whatever their specific role or where their focus area might be Right, and I do think those are absolutely keys.
Tracy Layney:And that's how, and I think also for candidates, you know, as they're in the workplace, how are they evaluating? Is this a good fit, right? So I guess I'd be curious, as you think about this how did what is there? What are they assessing in terms of the personalities of the people they're working on, how much potential the company has for them? How much is it a good match in that way? Because I do think at the end of the day, when you're hiring people, what you want is the closest match you can find, right when this really fits with both.
Tracy Layney:What the company is looking for, but also, importantly, what the person is looking for, because we know that if there's a mismatch on one of those, then it won't ultimately be. You know, a great, a great match as a from an employer perspective.
Bob Goodwin:I was leaving a fairly large group call before our call today with job seekers and it's part of what we were talking about. Tracy, I so much appreciate you bringing this up. There's mutual due diligence going on, because the last thing you want to do is take a job where it's not going to be a good fit, and part of my language Sunday night sucks. It's like, oh crap, I got to go back there again. It's like, yeah, you check the box that you got a job. Oh crap, I got to go back there again. So, yeah, you check the box that you got a job. But maybe we'll kind of segue into mental health here in a second. But if your job is stressing you out and it's not a good fit, that is hugely problematic, Totally.
Tracy Layney:And I want to pick up. You know, when you talked about being burned out, what does burned out mean to you, Gosh, I mean? So I think this is you know there's professionals that can answer gives a definition better than I could, but I think that you know we all, we talk a lot about this. Last few years, I think you know that's a word, burnout gets thrown around a lot and I think for I'll tell you about my own personal experience was, you know it's, I think, for those of us who, especially you know I mentioned I came out of consulting, I've always worked really hard, I've been able to work long hours and sort of pride in myself on that plus, you know, still balance family life and all the other priorities. And you know, I think, especially for folks like me, I would say I have, and I probably still do have, pride in myself and having a pretty high capacity for work, being able to take me, I think, especially in one of these jobs you have to.
Tracy Layney:However, without recovery time, without rest time, without stepping away time, that accumulates, it really does Right, I think, when you think about, when you talk about, burnout, it's that there has been no rest and recovery, it's just the constant, always on for days on end, hours on end, no end in sight actually, which just leads to severe exhaustion, but really just the feeling that at some point I can't do this anymore. Right, I cannot. I mean, I cannot do this one more day, and that is. It's a really scary feeling, especially for folks again who a lot of us who worked long hours our whole career and prided ourselves and climbed the corporate ladder or whatever it is Right, and then all of a sudden, one day, some of those skills you've had just to keep going, keep going, put my head down, just fail you, because your body is basically your body and your mind are saying I can't do this anymore. You know, there's just not any more to give.
Tracy Layney:And and we know we see it in multiple settings, not just work settings we see it with people who are taking care of loved ones and caregiving and parenting and all sorts of things, and I think this is it's a real, real challenge, and so so for me, it was so severe that I basically had to step away completely. I really said I'm going to take at least six months, probably a year, essentially, just walk away from my job and try to get myself back into a healthy, you know situation, um, and that is, and I and I don't recommend that it's not and I had I was lucky, I had the financial means to be able to do that. Most people don't, and so I think that that is an important lesson and it's interesting, right, this happened about 10 years ago and since then I've had two chief HR officer jobs, jobs that are arguably much more stressful than even the role I was in, which was a challenging executive role, but because I went through that experience and I understand how to take care of myself better, like how to you know, basically, the daily routine of just you know, making sure I'm getting enough sleep and making sure I'm getting, you know, as much exercise as I can, which is not a bit just a walk around the block even, or drinking enough water, or eating healthy foods, you know, making sure I really unplug on the weekends, take vacation time, all these things that we all know now. I mean now even. I mean even 10 years ago we didn't talk about this I will say one of the things that, like if that happened to me at that moment.
Tracy Layney:So I don't know if you're familiar with Ariana Huffington and her, her company, thrive Global, who were actually close partners with here at Ellison Co. So now I've gotten to know Ariana quite well and it's a great partnership. But 10 years ago I just knew her from being a public person and right when this was happening to me, she published her first book, thrive, her first book on the topic. She's other books, but Thrive about her own experience, essentially with burnout, about her own experience, and I feel like it was such a gift because it was a way to show some, it was somebody showing me this okay, something's not wrong with you. This is actually what happens and a lot of ways corporate America has been, you know, has been designed this way and there's another path right, which led her to then, years later start a company and then, who knew, you know, many years later we'd start to work together. But it was and I've told her this like this is such a gift, because it felt like, okay, I'm not alone, right.
Tracy Layney:And so this is why I'm so passionate about talking about mental health issues of all sorts, because I think, you know, we have to destigmatize what was what's actually been happening, you know, in the world for a long time, and I think the pandemic shed a light, you know, for better or worse, on these mental health issues, in some ways exacerbating them because of the isolation and the stress, etc.
Tracy Layney:But also letting people into our homes I mean, you're seeing me at my house right now and in a way that we hadn't before.
Tracy Layney:And so for me, this is something that I'm really passionate about, because I feel, like you know, as a human being, we're always going to deal with a mental health issue in our lifetime. It just is, it's just part of being human. And we often didn't talk about that in the workplace and we I think employees peril, and I think you know we've really, especially at Levi Strauss and co have tried to shift that and be much more open about it and then meet people where they are, to offer resources that we need so that whether that's starting with the de-stigmatization of it being people being really open about their own challenges to the degree that you want to, and then providing support mechanisms so folks can take care of themselves and their families, has been really important because certainly you know, I it's something I've had my own personal experience, but I've also had many people on my team who've had similar experiences and again, whatever it is, we need to make sure we're meeting people and supporting them.
Bob Goodwin:So when you think that's amazing and again I just want to say thank you for being open about like no, this was a real thing I had to tap out for a while and go sort of rebuild myself to be able to get back into the game and I'm very thankful that it feels like in the current environment it is more okay to do that. What are some of the things that you guys have done at Levi Strauss that you're seeing and getting the feedback that this is meaningfully helping people?
Tracy Layney:So it is something that we look at, you know, really holistically. So one thing I would say is, for those who might be listening, who are in HR roles, like, I think it's important to take a holistic look right. I think for a long time we had been very focused on sort of the physical outcomes of our employees. We still care deeply about those. Of course, we want people to be healthy because, you know, a lot of us are the primary healthcare provider for our employees, and so so, starting with just making sure people are healthy and that includes the mental health side of the equation as well and so we really, again in this holistic approach, we're trying to solve for multiple things. We're trying to. We really, again in this holistic approach, we're trying to solve for multiple things. We're trying to solve for okay, are there services we can offer that help people on a daily basis just take care of themselves, right? So I mentioned our partnership with Thrive, global. Thrive is all about micro steps. What do you do every day to take care of yourself right? Where do you want to focus? How do you put resets throughout your day, like, how do you just keep yourself as healthy as you can from a mental health perspective, and that is because everything from the Thrive app that people can use to we do programming around things that people understand. We did a lot of this during the pandemic in particular, so people understood more about how they're personally wired, how they you know, it's the work that Thrive has done with Stanford around biotypes and things like that, and then you know how might you therefore deal with stress and how might you then proactively manage that stress. So that's been one really important partnership. Also, we know that people need more support. So one of the other pieces we looked at is you know, a lot of us have had employee assistance programs for decades EAP programs that have been ho-hum and have only done so much to provide people with support when they need more support. So about a year and a half ago, we switched our approach to EAP. We now work with a company called Lyra, which provides a lot of mental health benefits, so people have on-time access to therapy right. So they have many 16 therapy sessions a year for them or their families that they can access virtually with a really diverse set of practitioners.
Tracy Layney:I'm also really proud to say we are a very global company and a lot of things we've been doing in these areas. We intentionally do globally, even though healthcare programming is very different across the globe. Right? Obviously, we have, you know, an approach in the US that we have to take from being self-insured as a healthcare provider of services, but very different in Europe, very different in Asia. But we still want to give all these services to everybody, and so even people in parts of the world can get whatever access they need with things like Lyra.
Tracy Layney:The other thing I would mention is making sure people have the time to take care of themselves. So we provide paid family leave to all of our benefits eligible employees, which is not common in retail to have. I mean, it's very common in some industries like technology. It's less common in retail. But we have paid family leave so that if you need to go take care of yourself or your family member, you can go do that and then come back to work. But if you need to go take care of yourself or your family member, you can go do that and then come back to work.
Tracy Layney:Something also I'm really proud we rolled out globally. We know we don't have great paid leave in the US. We often think because Europe or Canada and other places have great paid leave that the rest of the world does too. It doesn't. No-transcript should go do this because we actually think it makes good sense for the business. I never want to have somebody have to choose between taking care of their family member and their job. It doesn't make any sense in a world that's like. The last thing I want to do is replace somebody at work. I'd rather have them go take care of their family member and come back.
Bob Goodwin:I wanted to ask you about that. How do you go make the case to your CFO?
Tracy Layney:Oh it's, I mean, it's an easy case to be made. So we, we, first of all, it's cost us about 10% of we anticipated it is not cost prohibitive, first and foremost, but we didn't know that actually at the beginning. So we did, um, we did go make the case, um, to expand it, um, even like right before I got here, I mean, ended up being a blessing. We put the expanded leave in place in the us right before the pandemic which we, we didn't know was coming, really helpful, and then we did expand it to globally after that, which has been because it's the right thing to do and in the envelope of all of our benefits costs. It is a tiny fraction of what we're spending.
Tracy Layney:And you know, I think, because we take this holistic approach when we engage with my CFO or my CEO, because we take this holistic approach when we engage with my CFO or my CEO, everyone's looking at okay, well, how do we actually support people and being healthy and taking care of their families so they can come do their best work, and so, honestly, the cost has been negligible relative to what we thought it was going to be, and that doesn't even factor in.
Tracy Layney:Okay, what's the alternative cost? Alternative cost is replacing somebody, right? If someone chooses to leave leave, then you've got a turnover cost etc. Which we didn't even really have to factor in because there was support, because it very much is aligned with also our values as a company. So I think that's the other thing I would say is ellison co is a very values driven organization. We actually have empathy as a value and this very much felt like it aligned with how do we show up with empathy for our employees? And, by the again, just it's good business sense, because whatever I'm spending on paid leave, I'm not spending on replacing employees and all the productivity losses that we get in that way. And again, it's just not as expensive as I think people think it is.
Bob Goodwin:So you brought up the next place I wanted to go, so thank you, which is around empathy and maybe we can. I don't want to go in a weird direction, but remember when we had the manager that has an open role and work isn't getting done and here she's freaking out on like I need to get this work done, and now we've got a situation where we've got an employee who has personal needs and things that are going on in his or her life that are impacting their ability to come in and do work, that are impacting their ability to come in and do work. How do I balance empathy with the needs of the business if, in fact, those are opposing?
Tracy Layney:things. Yeah, I mean, I think that I think in you know, I think in the world not even in just business in the world we always have to deal with things that are seemingly at odds with each other, right, that's just again part of navigating life and and things like that. And so what I would say is that I think both things can be true. I think both things can be true that sometimes there, you know, we all will have challenges in our personal life. It's just a matter of timing, right? Well, there's either going to be a health challenge, a family challenge, something, and sometimes that requires people to take time away. There's the obvious ones that someone goes, has a child or adopts a child. That's an obvious one. Sometimes you have an older parent, sometimes you just need to take time for yourself, and that will happen at any point in people's lives, and not always predictably, right, we don't always know when that's going to happen, unfortunately, and I think that that obviously puts strains on a business. It might put strains because if you lose somebody for a period of time, you've got to work around that, but I think that when it comes to showing up with empathy, it's actually just understanding what's going on for these individuals. I think we do better when we actually know what's going on. We started this conversation, we're talking about bringing your whole self to work, and I think we will be better able to help employees manage what might be going on in their lives, accessing some of the resources I've described if we know what's going on. And so, with empathy also, I think what helps.
Tracy Layney:Empathy is transparency, when we can say, hey, this is you know, and even using the example of someone sharing their own personal journey, like I've been talking about, with some burnout, it makes it safer for folks to say, hey, I might be dealing with this. And, in my experience, the more we can train managers to say, well, can you go, get access to this resource? Making sure that it's easy for folks to access, then it helps them manage their life in a situation where, yes, it might include some time away, but then they're going to come back and be able to be focused and come back to work. Versus, what often happens is we don't know, we don't know, we don't know.
Tracy Layney:People don't push, don't share, don't share, don't share, and then they have to leave unexpectedly. Or and then they don't come back to work because they just decide to quit because they don't feel like they have another choice, which is much, actually, I would say, harder on the business or the folks that remain. So I'm a big believer that empathy in general isn't at odds with, say, performance and how the business is performing, which is another value of ours actually as a company, because if you're leading with empathy and you're understanding where people are, they're able to come and do their jobs more effectively. And I think that's just been borne out in my experience and certainly something that we we how we sort of think about leadership here at Ellison Co.
Bob Goodwin:I don't know your company well enough. Do people tend to be lifers at Ellison Co or do you guys draw from outside the company regularly?
Tracy Layney:I think it's both Right.
Tracy Layney:I think it's both Obviously.
Tracy Layney:We have the majority of our employees work in our stores and distribution centers and we have folks that have long tenure there but also shorter tenure, as is typical in retail, for sure and then our corporate workforce.
Tracy Layney:It's a mix, right, I think.
Tracy Layney:If you look at our leader I was just looking at some of the data our leaders, sort of our top 200 plus employees they have pretty long tenure with the company, but we also have new folks coming in all the time because, especially as we think about the future and future skills, you know we've really spent time the last few years as everyone has thinking about machine learning and AI and all the other things.
Tracy Layney:Right, and some of those skills are newer that we've brought to the table. I think it's always good to have I mean, firstly, my philosophy, always good to have a balance folks who've really been in a place a long time and understand it, and, and then also newer folks. We have a new CEO who joined us 18 months ago and took over the CEO mantle in January with a very planful succession process, and it's been great to have her energy and her perspective Michelle Goss in the organization and then even her leadership team is sort of a mixed bag of highly tenured and newer folks, and so I personally am a fan of a little bit of a mix, but certainly people come because they love the company and they stay because they love it.
Bob Goodwin:Well, part of the reason I ask is if I grew up in a culture where empathy, authenticity, vulnerability, some of the things that we're talking about was kind of a given and like I'm bought in and then maybe I'm the smartest person in Silicon Valley and machine learning or AI or whatever, and I get hired by you guys and say, well, that's kind of not how I'm used to doing it, like I'm harder driving super direct, like whatever I feel has gotten me to where I am to be successful. Do you guys either vet that out during the interview process or is that something that you find that needs to be taught a little bit?
Tracy Layney:I think you know, I think certainly so we talk a lot about our values as the center of who we are. So our values are, you know, very much critical to who we are, and they do go into our hiring process, right. We do look for folks who align with our values as we go through hiring or as we develop folks, as we assess in our performance management process, like, our values are very, very front and center. And so I think somebody who may have a different approach than aligns with their values, probably wouldn't be the happiest at all, and that's not unique to us. Every company is like that, right. Probably wouldn't be the happiest at all and that's not unique to us.
Tracy Layney:Every company is like that, right, every company. That's where we talk about company culture, right. What is the culture we're made up of and what do we need to do? And we also talk about the parts of our culture we love and we want to lean into and then parts that need to also evolve, right, because every company also has parts of our culture that you know we could be stronger at, right. We, you know, for us as an example, you know we do.
Tracy Layney:We do lead with empathy a lot, which is great, but that doesn't mean you're not also direct, like I really believe that being direct is also being kind and that's a form of empathy. But maybe we don't always show up that way, right, because it's hard for managers to have a direct conversation, it's hard to give direct feedback sometimes and things like that. So we know there's areas we need to lean into as well. So I do think it is about assessing and understanding who's going to be successful, right, it's not even about being a fit. It's like is this person going to be successful? It's back to what we talked about it's mutual assessment on both ways, and there are folks who probably wouldn't feel as comfortable in our company or others in another company. I mean, again, every company has to understand who they are and what they're looking for, and I think same with candidates they need to do the same thing.
Bob Goodwin:Awesome. So let's kind of come into the homestretch here a little bit. I want to kind of actually go back to some of the beginning of the conversation around career stuff, because I'm always fascinated by people that have been very successful and you mentioned early on about being laid off successful and you mentioned early on about being laid off and again, we work a lot with people who have been laid off and it's devastating to them. Somebody a week or so ago was like hey, bob, I'd like to write you a recommendation, but is it okay if I don't put my name on it? Because basically, the stigma of being unemployed and or laid off I'm like wow, like that makes me sad that she's carrying that around, like she's done something wrong or somehow. What would you say to somebody that is feeling guilty, shameful, whatever, about losing their job through a layoff?
Tracy Layney:It is really. It is really sad. And I would first start saying I understand. I understand why people feel that way. I know I felt that way.
Tracy Layney:It does feel like because you don't have much control, right, it happens to you, you don't have a lot of control in that situation and so and there is a lot of shame and stigma around it would also say, as an hr professional, do your best to let that go, because it's very it would be unusual and unlikely that any of us go through our entire career without being laid off or losing a job, not of our own decision, right, it's, it's not it. I mean, at some point it's going to happen to everybody. And I've had folks who've gotten much further in their career, who I've had to personally lay off and watch their reaction and watch the stigma, even folks in HR who've laid off. I mean the challenge with being in my role is, unfortunately, I've had to lay off a lot of people in my career and what I can tell you is that it isn't, it isn't personal. I mean it really isn't. I mean it's a company making a hard, hard, hard decision, the hardest decision we ever have to make. It's something I don't take lightly, and I, every time I do it, it's very hard, but it is definitely not about any one individual and it's not reflection of that individual. So as much as you can release that shame, the better off you're going to be.
Tracy Layney:And to say and to not carry that around, because again, it happens to everybody and so you know, I think and to use that opportunity when it happens. This is now your world of assessing Is this what I want to keep doing? Is this a moment to pivot? Is this a moment to double down? Is this a moment to go, get to something different or get some more education or whatever those things are? I mean, it's a transition, a transition that may not be completely feel pleasant, but it is. Transitions provide opportunities, right, they just do. And I love looking at LinkedIn and seeing people who I know been laid off and where they land, what interesting things they're doing or what they're doing in the meantime. I mean it's really fascinating and there's so much richness to that experience that I think I think is available to folks. But I think the first step is to say, look, don't carry that with you because unfortunately it just it's. It's a sort of a fact of a working life.
Bob Goodwin:That will happen to us at least once most likely no, no, and that's exactly right, and you know we teach people. I really appreciate what you said about letting it go. That's actually almost the exact phrase that we use. We have a little acrostic about keeping even keel. Know that you're going to land. Emotional ups and downs are part of the ride. Expect the best from yourself and from other people and let it go. Even if you're right, you have to let it go, because anger often is also an emotion that people have. And the other thing that you said is what we would call benefit finding. So I wouldn't have chosen this for myself, but now that I'm here, you know what.
Bob Goodwin:I worked at that company for 14 years. Is that really like I was in a rut? I wasn't growing. You know their values were starting to separate from mine, and nobody's right or wrong, just is Taking care of an aging parent. There's so many things If you're looking to. How can I make this something positive? It can be, if you will let it be, but there needs to be an intentionality around that and you can't always see it yet Like you'll see it in hindsight.
Tracy Layney:You can't. I mean I. When I say I say this all the time, I mean who knew if? Say I say this all the time, I mean who knew if I? I mean I was liking my career, doing org work. I got laid off from Levi's.
Tracy Layney:I could never have predicted that almost 20 years later I'd be back being the chief HR officer at that company. I mean that was not even something I could have seen Right, but I knew that I really loved. I'd worked a lot with the HR organizations my last two when I was in consulting and organizations my last two when I was in consulting. And so when the opportunity came at Gap, I thought, okay, that's great, I'll go learn this, I'll be more traditional HR, see if I like that. And in terms I loved it and then ended up on this path.
Tracy Layney:But I never could have known that right. And so there's just things that you can't see in the moment and it doesn't always bring comfort if those of us like to be planful and, you know, have me feel like we're in control, but just know that you'll look back a few years, like whenever period later and think, oh my gosh, I learned this or I got to do that or whatever. That is because of this moment in time and I'm not saying that to sugarcoat it, I'm not, I'm hard to take away how hard it is. It's very hard, but you just you don't always know what's around the corner it. You don't always know what's around the corner.
Bob Goodwin:It's the very. I will tell you, though, that that is a very consistent experience, and also all the networking that goes on. I met so many nice people right and that I never would have met. I got to reconnect with people I wouldn't have reconnected with, and it actually kind of, in some ways, restores people's faith that there's so many nice people out there that didn't need to do something for me, and that turns into a pay it forward kind of a mindset, and so I I promise I will always take some nice phone call, whatever. I want to go back. Uh, two more questions. I want to go back to what you said, like one of your favorite questions to ask when you're interviewing is, if I heard you right, you know what's a success story, what's something that you're really proud of, what's the question behind the question? What are you looking for?
Tracy Layney:I want to see how people respond and what they share, and sometimes I'll even say it doesn't have to be specifically work-related, it doesn't have to. I mean, I love to actually ask young people this.
Tracy Layney:I mean, I ask everybody this. But, especially like for those people who are earlier in career, we'll often talk about an experience in college or the younger like you know, just because it's and it can be part of a team they were on or something like that. What I'm looking for is the kind of work someone says they're proud of, like what did they do and why? Why were they proud of it? The question behind the question is tell me why, tell me what made that a meaningful experience with you, and I'm not looking for one answer. It could be lots of things. It could be because I got to be really creative. It could be because I got work for the great team and I love working with other people. It could be because I overcame a challenge Lots and lots of reasons.
Tracy Layney:I'm just really curious and what generally happens is the person physically changes, right. So they're in an interview and they're being very buttoned up or very and like they'll face will light up, right, if they actually can think of something, and I watch the physical change and then how they talk about what they're proud of and to me it's just it's so instructive of kind of it's really gets to some of the other things we've talked about, some of the other P's, like who's this person is, what them up, what gets them excited, um, kinds of things they they really like to work on, why they like to work on those kinds of things. And again it feels like a very universal question. I can ask it of anybody at any level, because in my role I interview lots of people and across lots of different functions, sometimes for my own function, but lots of different parts of the business and I get an insight into, into you know, what lights them up? And I think that literally physically, what lights them up, and I love, I love to watch that.
Bob Goodwin:Now, it's funny you say that because this is part of what we teach people is to have an appropriate level of competence. Right, it's not cockiness and it's not arrogance, but it's it's a grounded self-belief. And when, when people can get to that place, the way I say something, it's like you can see the fever break and then it's like they lean in, like I just did, and you smile more and there's more direct eye contact. You modulate differently. You're using my hands now, right, you know I'm becoming more of a full human, not this interview candidate in this sort of contrived construct of a conversation, but like oh let me tell you, and it really does open people up and I think that that's cool.
Bob Goodwin:Last asked question With the benefit of hindsight. You mentioned that a minute ago. With the benefit of hindsight, if you were able to give 28-year-old Tracy some really good career advice or maybe you're giving it to a 19-year-old sophomore at University of Miami what would you?
Tracy Layney:say I thought about this question actually just because, you know, a lot of times I've been asked this. I think I would actually tell myself not to worry so much, which is maybe that's not a fair set of advice because, like I, have the benefit of not being 28 years old anymore and having many decades on that period. To me that's not fair, but I do think there's something to that right To say. I think we all and I just had the benefit of actually talking to a 21-year-old the beauty of getting to this point in my life is not just that my son has gone to college, but all my friends' kids are going to college or graduating from college right, and we've had this amazing group of friends who we've watched their kids grow up, and it's such a blessing to be able to give a lot of advice to other kids I've known since they were literally kids Right. And so I was talking to this young woman who I've probably known since she was 11 and she's 20, almost 22. And she's going into her senior year, michigan, and she's trying to figure out what she wants to do and she thought she wanted to go to med school, but now she's not sure and I think what she walked away feeling more than anything else, was that it was gonna be okay. So if I was gonna tell myself that it's gonna be okay, because it is gonna be okay and you don't know what it's gonna be and that's also okay, right, and I think I actually acted more taking that advice when I was younger, I just thought, okay, this is interesting, okay, I'll do that, then I'll do that, then I'll do that.
Tracy Layney:But that doesn't mean it didn't have a lot of anxiety underneath it, right? Am I making the right decision? Should I go do this? Should I like? We have all these shoulds right that we think about, and so it didn't prevent me from, you know, trying new things and things like that. But I'll tell you, I think a lot of us have a lot of anxiety about what this is.
Tracy Layney:You probably deal with it, with the candidates you work with, the folks you work with. Should I go take this role? Should I? And I think that the advice for all of us is it's going to be okay. And so I would tell my 28-year-old self, just like I told this young woman don't worry out even mistakes, if you want to call them that, it's just learning. In fact, I'm just telling my son this the other day I was like, just go do lots of things Like it doesn't have to be, like they're, you know they're failures or gifts. Right, they really are. And and ultimately they're probably not even really failures because they just gave you a gift and allowed you to pivot and do something else. And so I think I would just tell myself not to worry, and even my own age, I tell myself that Amen.
Tracy Layney:You still wonder what's the next or what's the you know and how like it's. It's good advice to even remind ourselves, because we do have the benefit of more decades on the planet and and yet we still need that reminder too. So I think that's that's what I would tell anybody right now is like it's, it's going to be okay and you know and you may not see what's next, but that just means there's something exciting on the horizon.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, well, I really appreciate that, and I think that that does kind of de-stress it. There's not just one right answer. There could be lots of good answers for you. So go explore, go check out different things, and you know, I love what you're saying, though, because it's true and, to your point, even today, it's going to be OK.
Tracy Layney:It's going to be OK and it's going to be great. It's going to be more than OK and it's going to be great.
Bob Goodwin:It's going to be more than it's going to be great, Like I think that You're using the word thrive with Ariana, and that's such a good word because it's more than survive, it's thrive Like you're going to grow your experience. You're going to be a richer, fuller human being. For the experiences that come your way, embrace them.
Tracy Layney:Absolutely Cause. That's what life is. That's what life is. That's what we're here for. Right, that's this. It's like this one. Like you know, I love the Mary Oliver quote. What are you going to do with your one wild and precious life? Right, that's, that's that's a motto that I think we all could, you know, remind ourselves of, and and that means it's going to be winding and exciting, and sometimes not exciting and sometimes scary, but you know it's, it's what we get to do and that's such a privilege, and a blessing, tracy.
Bob Goodwin:I can't end it on a better note than that, so I'm going to stop talking while the getting is good. Thank you so much. What a pleasure to have you. I really, I really enjoyed our conversation today.
Tracy Layney:Oh, I enjoyed it so much. Bob, thank you so much, truly, I really appreciate it.
Bob Goodwin:No, thank you. And for everybody who's taken a few minutes out of your day, I hope you enjoyed listening to Tracy as much as I did. Thank you for taking a few minutes, rate and review on whatever your favorite podcast platform is. We look forward to seeing you next time. And, tracy, just thank you again. Very fun, thanks so much.
