Career Club Live with Bob Goodwin
Career Club Live with Bob Goodwin now available as a podcast! Please subscribe to get career and job search advice, as we interview experts in the field. If you're looking for great content to have a career that matters to you, you've come to the right place.
Career Club Live with Bob Goodwin
Transforming Company Culture Through Leadership and Employee Engagement with Cheryl Kish
Ever wondered how leadership and employee engagement can transform a company's culture and success? Tune in to Career Club Live, where we sit down with Cheryl Kish, a seasoned executive with over twenty years of experience in leadership and change management. Cheryl’s remarkable journey from the hospitality industry to her pivotal role at Hooters Restaurants offers invaluable insights into effective leadership strategies. With certifications in neuroscience and ROI coaching, she shares her holistic approach to leadership that has influenced various industries. Cheryl opens up about her personal life, adding a relatable touch to her professional narrative.
Employee engagement is more than just a buzzword—it's a crucial component of business success. Cheryl and I delve into the significance of aligning individual beliefs with organizational goals, using case studies from Hooters and Delta to illustrate the point. We discuss the alarming lack of proper training among frontline managers and emphasize the need for companies to invest in leadership development. This chapter underscores how prioritizing internal customers—your employees—can lead to a more motivated workforce and, ultimately, better customer service and business outcomes.
Communication is key to building high-performing teams, and Cheryl offers practical advice on bridging the gap between senior leadership and execution teams. We talk about the importance of creating success profiles to match the right skills with the right roles and the role of intentional communication in preventing organizational silos. Cheryl also highlights the value of mentorship and personal growth, sharing stories of individuals who have thrived under supportive leadership. Whether you're looking to enhance team dynamics or seeking ways to foster a growth-oriented environment, this episode is packed with actionable insights.
Hi everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live. Thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us today. Before we begin, I just want to make sure that I'm sharing a new offering that we've got here at Career Club, which is a free group coaching call every Thursday. We call it Career Club Corner and it's at one o'clock Eastern. All you need to do to register is go to careerclub and the main banner. There will be an invitation to register for that. So if you're in job search or know somebody who is in job search and these days who doesn't know somebody who's looking, we'd really encourage you. This is just part of our give back to the job seeking community to provide what we hope are some quality resources to people looking for a new role. And again, it's free. It'll always be free and we hope that you take advantage. Careerclub, just click on the main banner and register for free. So with that, I'm really excited about today's guest.
Bob Goodwin:I've gotten to know Cheryl over the past few months and before I get ahead of myself, let me just read a little bit about her background and then we'll get her on stage here with me. So Cheryl Whiting-Kish is a seasoned executive with over two decades of experience dedicated to guiding organizations in their most vital investment, their legacy. Better known to you and me as Hooters Restaurants. From 2019 to 2024, cheryl drove transformation initiatives that enhanced organizational effectiveness and employee engagement. Cheryl's also certified in neuroscience, brain-based coaching by the Oxford Brain Institute and licensed in ROI coaching, and she brings a unique blend of expertise in leadership, change management and people development, topics that we will definitely be exploring. Cheryl's holistic approach has made significant impacts across diverse industries, earning her recognition as a Georgia 100 Titans of Industry for both 2023 and 2024. With that, cheryl welcome.
Cheryl Kish:Hi Bob, Thank you for having me.
Bob Goodwin:No, that's great. And so, like I said, I think it was Andrea Herron at WebMD that got us introduced back last year and I have really enjoyed getting to know you over the past probably year now. So what I like to do, as is our habit, is just to get to know you a little bit as a human being first, so others can start to get to know the Cheryl I've gotten to know. So just a handful of easy icebreaker questions, if that's okay.
Cheryl Kish:Absolutely.
Bob Goodwin:Cool, so we'll start with the easiest one when were you born and raised?
Cheryl Kish:I was born in Fort Belvoir, virginia. My father was in the Air Force at the time, but I was actually raised in Melbourne, florida, and that's on the East Coast, space Coast of Florida and I have family members my mom is still there, my sister, my brother.
Bob Goodwin:Oh, awesome. Well, speaking of family, tell us about a little bit. Who's under your roof these days?
Cheryl Kish:Yes, so my husband, George and I live in Atlanta. George and I have been married. We're going on six years now, and so it's the two of us. And then, on both sides of our family, we have plenty of nieces and nephews, and I even have great nephews now which I'm super excited about.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, that's cool. And where did you go to school?
Cheryl Kish:Sure, so I was going to school in. Can we pause here, bob? Yeah, are you able to edit this? Yeah?
Bob Goodwin:Sorry. So catch your breath, are you ready? And then I'll ask you again.
Cheryl Kish:Yes.
Bob Goodwin:Okay, cool, and so where did you go to school?
Cheryl Kish:Yes, so I went to school near the University of Florida. I was going to junior college there, actually for journalism, so I got my AA there and but then actually took a totally different path and I'm sure we'll talk about it, and ended up in hospitality.
Bob Goodwin:Awesome, ok, cool. So let's just jump off right there. Do you mind just painting a little bit of a picture of your career arc?
Cheryl Kish:Absolutely so. At a very young age, like many of us that worked in hospitality or do work in hospitality. So I started at a very young age as a teenager in hospitality but quickly, by the time I was in my very early 20s, I was in a leadership role, worked with Bennigan's and Marriott and eventually Hooters and others, and then by my early 30s I was actually developing leaders of people myself and then by the time I was in my early 40s, was vice president of human resources training and development at HOA which you mentioned but actually in 2002, started my consulting business and focused on human resources leadership development, training and eventually executive coaching.
Bob Goodwin:Awesome. Well, I know we will talk about that here in just a little bit. And then last question then we'll dive into our topics is what do we find you doing when you're not doing executive coaching and all those kinds of cool things?
Cheryl Kish:Sure, so I live in Atlanta, as I mentioned, and so we're very near the Beltline. I love to get out very walkable area of town, so I'm always out there walking about, and then I've taken on a gardening gazebo project for the summer. Awesome, very cool.
Bob Goodwin:Well, like I said, I've really enjoyed getting to know you and where I wanted to kind of just start because I think that there's probably and I'll raise my hand to somebody that would be in that category who initially maybe had not a complete picture of Hooters and what the culture is like, and I know you said you'd started in hospitality. You might want to open that up a little bit, but you know what is it about Hooters and the culture that attracts you to it, and how has that changed over the years?
Cheryl Kish:Sure. So Hooters is celebrating its 40th anniversary this year and I started with the organization way back in the late in the late 80s was a very young organization, I mean I had been a manager somewhere else and so when I think back over all of those years, there's this very much a family sort of feel internally. When you join at the organization Hooters you're immediately taken in and there's this culture of belonging, maybe that one didn't even really know that they needed. Also, if I think back to there's, there's a lot of pride. No, hooters, as most know, is a female based. Right. We're a female based organization, primarily women. Probably 70% of the folks that work in Hooters are women. So there's quite a sisterhood that has developed, an alumni that has developed over these past four decades, and so I could go on and on and talk about that sisterhood and the alumni and the empowerment and all of that. But it's very much a culture that allows one to be themselves and to grow within or even beyond the brand.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah. So I mean I really want you to share maybe some stories, because you know you really impressed me as I learned more about how you know women kind of in a lot of cases found their identity, found their purpose and went on to have really, you know, impactful careers, and I just want to know if you could share a story or two along those lines.
Cheryl Kish:Sure, absolutely so. When I rejoined in 2019, rejoined the organization, as you mentioned earlier, it was really a mission of mine and a passion project of mine to shine a spotlight on and create or even shift a narrative that was maybe out there about the women half a million women that had donned the orange shorts over the four decades.
Cheryl Kish:And so we really start to look at who these women are. They are not defined, right, as many might want to, defined by the period of time they worked at Hooters and wore orange shorts by their choice, right. So when I think about, you know, Alicia Andrews, who was the first ever Deputy Secretary of Cybersecurity in the state of Virginia, just ran for Congress in the state of Virginia. She's a former Hooters girl, right. Or I think about Rochelle Dagless, who is now has her own organization and worldwide, you know, focusing on women of color and empowering women of color. Or I think about, you know, a colleague and friend of mine, Jessica Pounds, who is a senior vice president over at GoToFoods and she's overseeing seven different brands. And I could go on and on. So the alumni, the sisterhood, the women that have come through the organization, through their own you know, really advocacy there, and through their own agency, have become whomever they want to be, and Hooters has provided a platform for that. So I could again.
Cheryl Kish:I could go on and on.
Bob Goodwin:No, no, no. This is good. What is it about the platform? What is it that Hooters has done? That, you know, is really, you know, empowering these women to kind of go on to these really cool things.
Cheryl Kish:Well, there's a couple of things, and a lot of organizations do this right. So providing tuition reimbursement is very attractive for folks coming into the organization. Also the fact that you can really bring your own unique personality. And there's also almost this you know, I've talked to a lot of Hooters girls. You know present and former alumni, and when I ask them what brought you to the organization, I get so many that say I was growing up and I would come there with my family and I was just in awe of the Hooters girls and I've always wanted to be a Hooters girl. It's almost like wanting to be. I'll just liken it to a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader, but of the restaurant industry. And so there's this mystique because while she's serving and all of that, she's more than a waitress, she's a Hooters girl. And so there's this more than a waitress, she's a hooters girl. And so there's this I wonder if I can be a hooters girl too and as I also interview these women.
Cheryl Kish:I said, well, what did you gain or learn? Or how did hooters help help you prepare for life beyond? I often get confidence. I um, I wasn't very confident until I joined and I learned how to speak and I learned how to use my voice. We always get. I learned how to deal with difficult situations. I learned how to communicate. I learned how to network. I met people that I never would have met before. They were my customers and they introduced me to the world of cybersecurity or law or whatever it might be. So those are the type of responses that I get, and one of the things even though I'm not currently inside the organization any longer is to continue to interview and to tell that story, because there's so much to it.
Bob Goodwin:See, and this is one piece that I really wanted to unpack for people who are watching or listening to, this is and I love what you said like this confidence and it's actually aspirational, but, like you said, they found their voice. I'm just going to repeat what you said, because I think that a lot of people might labor under the misimpression of objectification or whatever and it's like no, no, no, this is more. They're actually getting into self-actualization and really kind of and I like what you said finding their voice. But this notion of confidence, I do want to double click on that for a minute. That is not to be underestimated, a minute that is not to be underestimated.
Bob Goodwin:So many people lack confidence and a healthy understanding of who they are right, and it kind of manifests in at least a couple of ways. One is they just don't aspire as highly as they could, you know, and they have these self-imposed limits because there's a lack of self-belief. The negative, or more negative, version of that is imposter syndrome, right? So I'm overcompensating for this lack of, you know, worth that I might feel and it creates this other form of anxiety. And yet in this environment, like you said, it's more than just being a waitress. I waited tables for four years, so, like my, empathy level is very high, but it's still different with this particular brand.
Cheryl Kish:Yeah, One thing I'd like to touch on around the brand and I think what helps build the confidence and just opens up possibilities for young women coming to work for the organization is when I say more than a waitress, more than a waitress, Hooters is very involved and always has been, for 40 years, in the communities in which it serves and operates. So, whether it's promotions inside the four walls, but so often it's promotions and serving the community outside the four walls. So these women are going out into the community and they're serving, whether it's at hospitals, children's hospitals. There's a story about a Hooters girl. A couple of years ago she actually became Miss International Hooters. Well, she was, I believe, out of Miami and she was, as a young child, ill and had to spend a lot of time in the children's hospital. And she spoke about how the Hooters girls, when she was a young girl, would come and visit the hospital and bring gifts and spend time with the children and that always stuck with her and she's like that's what I want to do. And so now, as a Hooters girl and former Miss International, right, she has gone back to do that at the very same hospital.
Cheryl Kish:So, whether it's the girl, you know the Girl Scouts come and sell cookies at, you know, at Hooters, or we're doing all sorts of things. I mean we, we raise Hooters has raised millions and millions and millions of dollars for breast cancer awareness. I mean, last year a check was presented I got to present the check at Madison Square Gardens for $785,000. I mean that's amazing and that's every year that this is happening. So the whole month of October, you know, everyone in all of the restaurants are raising money. So that's part of where I think some of the I meaning, you know, I a young Hooters girl and being exposed. I'm coming to work, yes, to serve food and drink, but I'm doing it in a way with my personality I'm really engaging with because that's what we're looking for is this engagement with the guest and shining and providing these experiences both inside the four walls and in the community.
Bob Goodwin:Let's pick up on that idea of employee engagement, because I know that's something that a lot of companies struggle with right and something that I know that you think about. What? Where do companies struggle? Why is it the companies struggle to drive employee engagement? What can they and should they be doing about it?
Cheryl Kish:I think the companies that struggle. They're focusing on the wrong thing first. They're focusing on the external customer and only the external customer. You have to do both right and I believe you focus on your internal client or customer first, which is your employee or team member, and you have to provide experiences, bob, that are going to drive the beliefs of those people that are working in your organization, that are going to drive the beliefs that are then going to drive the behaviors or the action that are going to drive your business results.
Cheryl Kish:If you take an organization like Hooters, it's always been about fun. It's always been. You know it's a great place to work. We're flexible with your schedule. Come on in, it's a party all the time and you get to be a part of that. So, creating those experiences for the men and women right, we call it heart of house at Hooters and the Hooters girls First, they're, of course, going to show up in a way that you want them to show up and hope that they show up for the guests that choose to come in. So I don't care what type of organization you're in, you have to focus on driving the beliefs and therefore the behaviors, of the people that are working for you okay, and what do you mean by the beliefs?
Bob Goodwin:what does it? What does that mean?
Cheryl Kish:yeah. So, uh, what the beliefs that, um, let's say, customer service is a belief, that that, how important customer service is is a belief that you want your team members to have. Well, then, the experiences you provide for those team members should be very service oriented. So you know, if you want your servers to be guest obsessed, then what are? And you want them to believe that they should be guest obsessed, then, as leaders in the organization, are you guest obsessed with the people that work for you? Yes, what are you doing for them? Right? How are you taking care of them? How are you providing that? Because if you're not doing that, they're not gonna be guest obsessed for the external customer. That's one example yeah of what I have?
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, and it's a great example. This alignment of individuals' belief systems to the company's belief systems are huge, and when you can achieve that and you're recruiting the right kinds of people and then modeling the behavior that you want to see, then you're right. That's actually culture is actually how stuff gets done. It's not what we say, it's not what's on the conference room walls or whatever. It's like how work really gets done, and it's one thing to kind of declare it. It's another thing to demonstrate what you want.
Bob Goodwin:We were talking earlier about some of the other phenomenal guests like you that we've had on the podcast, and somebody that I got to interview last year was Ed Bastian in Atlanta of Delta, ceo of Delta, and exactly what you're describing if you take care of your frontline people, they will take care of your customers. They will take care of your shareholders. That's the virtuous circle, as he would describe it, and I think that it's very in line with what you're describing. And then this is I mean, it sounds like consultants speak sometimes, but it's not what you said, though is so spot on Beliefs drive behaviors.
Cheryl Kish:What you said, though, is so spot on Beliefs drive behaviors. I, to my core, believe that Right, and that's what, at Define Consulting, we're focused on is helping organizations. I'm working with a group out of Nashville now, and I have to tell you that an entrepreneurial organization founder is so strongly believes in the core beliefs and the values of the organization COO I work with and the leaders that they're developing. That is, first and foremost. It is a people first over profit driven organization. Yet, of course, it's very profitable and it's growing and growing, and growing, but it's because of the deep rooted belief that your core values you have to live and walk those every day, no matter who you are, and people say that all the time, but not many actually able to do it.
Bob Goodwin:So you know, as a CHRO and in building leadership qualities into the culture, you know where does your mind go on that and how do companies effectively build, you know, high quality leaders, particularly at the frontline management level.
Cheryl Kish:Sure. So I believe that it starts with really understanding and defining the company, really understanding it's not only its vision, its future state vision for business results, but really understanding who they want to be and what they want to be known for as an organization. Right, what is the legacy that the organization right or the footprint that the organization wants to be known for? And then from there you say, well, what type of leaders are going to be able to drive that vision, drive those values right? And then there's also this piece around as a leader, having vision for yourself as a leader. So helping leaders understand that, yes, there's an organizational brand, but you have your own leadership and personal brand. And you mentioned the word alignment, one of my favorites. You know where is there and how do you create alignment to the organization and who you are as a leader? And then just ensuring that that is constantly part of whatever developmental programs you're offering and that there's sustainability around that, and making sure that there's that alignment.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, you know, what's weird is there's a study out we're recording this in June. It came out a couple of weeks ago and it was talking about like fully two thirds of frontline managers say they've had no training in management or leadership. I was like what? Like how can that possibly be and how can you execute a strategy if your frontline managers haven't been given the skills, the tools, the fundamentals to do that?
Cheryl Kish:It is amazing, bob, how many organizations I might have mentioned this to you.
Cheryl Kish:I'll work with an organization or be introduced to one, and it's like a 50-year-old organization or 30-year-old, and you go oh well, surely they must have this in place, surely they must be doing this. And then you get in there and you to your point, oh, my goodness. So I think sometimes, often, um, organizations can be successful in spite of themselves. Um, but, uh, the organization I was speaking of earlier, that I'm working with, and in the philosophy that's so rooted around leadership and values, um, if you're going to be a leader of people there, then you go through the leadership program, you go through the different levels of the leadership program that they have to offer.
Bob Goodwin:Well, let's kind of move into what you're doing these days in kind of your consulting business, and how do you take the practices of a big company like HOA and the other things that you've learned in your corporate career? How do you overlay those into a business that's maybe not quite as big or has all the resources?
Cheryl Kish:Sure. So it starts with really understanding I've mentioned this, but it starts with really sitting with the decision makers, the leaders right of the organization, and understanding what is it that they're trying to accomplish and why. So again, what is the vision? What are you trying to accomplish? Why do you believe there's a gap? I ask why this? Why, now, right, why this one? Now, what's the, what's the perceived gap? And let's just talk about baby steps in order to move the needle. So it's assessing current state, no matter how big or small the organization is right, you've got a future vision. You've got a current reality. Let's just look at, regardless of resources, what's going to move the needle, a little bit at a time.
Bob Goodwin:So that's sort of the framework and you just look at what is it that the organization is trying to tackle and then you know, like in classic consulting, you might have people, processes, technologies. Do you find that there's some key?
Cheryl Kish:levers, particularly in your practice, that you guys are able to help people bridge certain gaps really effectively. Well, it's really on the people side. So for my business it's really around opening up possibilities, opening up mindset. Really, looking at one size does not fit all when it comes to people. So we're really looking at the people side. The process side certainly it's. If the process isn't in place and that's causing this disconnect with people, productivity, then of course we're going to look at that as well, because you know, if people don't have the tools and resources and systems and all that in order to self-actualize or fully be productive, then that has to be addressed for sure.
Bob Goodwin:On the technology side not as much, although certainly AI and all of that we want to stay current in that because there's no doubt that that's impacting the workplace and impacting people false framework, like don't be bound by it, but not having the right kinds of people, not having the people in the right positions, not having the tools, not knowing what's expected of them. Where do you find kind of the most common people gaps?
Cheryl Kish:Well, I'm just going to it's communication, for what I find over and over and over again is that a lot of the, the confusion or the lack of productivity, or maybe the performance drivers. When I interview folks deeper down an organization always comes up that there's not a clear line of the clarity often is not there around. What am I supposed to be doing? Why am I doing this? How do I fit into the bigger picture? That's often a miss with organizations, and then I also think it's organizations not taking enough time to understand the individual. And then a third thing I'll say is, um, ensuring, a lot of times in organizations, the, the leaders, want to try to make a certain person that's already there fit in a seat or a role, and so, um, I try to help organizations.
Cheryl Kish:Look at, you know, let's look at success profiles. First let's develop the org design. What do you need and what do you need in those roles right? And what would somebody in that role need to possess competency-wise, skill-wise, right in order to be successful? Then let's take a look at whether or not, you know, bob fits that role at all, and a lot of organizations don't, you know, want to take the time to necessarily build out that org, design future, state and the success profiles that are necessary for today and tomorrow to drive you know the results that the organization I want to come to success profiles in a second, but hearkening back to your kind of original thing on its communication and people don't know what's expected of them.
Bob Goodwin:Do senior leaders believe? Well, we're telling them? Are they not getting it? Yeah, Okay, why is that happening? Where's it not working?
Cheryl Kish:I think that senior leaders are moving so fast. What I hear often from my clients is that the senior leadership is just go, just go, just go. And you know I get it. At the same time, what happens is you can start to fragment so the folks that are expected to execute the vision. If they're not, if it's not communicated effectively, if the work's not prioritized, then you're going to end up with silos within the organization. Everybody's trying to do their best, there's competing priorities, but when you actually interview those leaders who are expected to execute against senior leadership's vision, we've got to look at ways to close that gap. And then I mentioned prioritization. It's limiting the number of priorities in order to truly drive the results.
Cheryl Kish:And the last thing I'll say about communication I'm a big fan of John Cotter's work when it comes to change and leading change. And you know Cotter will say you have to have a compelling vision. Of course there has to be a sense of urgency, but over communicate. You think you've communicated, but you have to communicate 10 times more, or even more than that than you think. You have to communicate, and you have to do it in many, many, many different ways. So to answer your question yes, senior leaders believe they've said it, they should get it, and it's not the case.
Bob Goodwin:Well, I do want to pick up on the point you're making around priorities, because that strikes close to home, because I live in idea land and it's like, hey, well, here's another good idea and here's another good idea, and I'm very fortunate to have a colleague that's like that's OK, bob, we can go do that. What do you want me to stop doing? So we can go do that. That's right. My understanding, bob, is the priorities are one, two, three, four, five. Is that how you see it? And like we have a weekly conversation just on priorities, it's okay if something shifts, it's just what are we going to stop doing? To go do that, and are we all in alignment? That, okay, we were going to do that in July. You're saying it's okay that that doesn't happen until September. Right, yeah, that's it, but it's setting expectations. It's okay to be fluid with some of this stuff.
Bob Goodwin:The other thing that I'm taking from what you're saying, cheryl, that I think is really strong, is highly related, which is focus, like you can't do everything, so pick the things that you are going to do and do with excellence, know why you're doing those and why you're choosing them versus something else, which is the prioritization piece, and then you know I love what you're saying too. Like, as a leader, I think about this stuff all the time, right, that's why it's so in my head, but you know, thankfully other people aren't thinking about this as much as I do, and so they do need the reinforcement and I love how you said it and they need to hear it in a bunch of different ways, right. So really, really good advice and things. What I also like about this is that it's in your control. Like, everything you just said doesn't require money, it requires intentionality.
Cheryl Kish:I love that word too Go ahead. No, I love that word too. Ahead no, I love that word too. You've mentioned alignment several times, one of my favorite words in the dictionary, and intentionality, another one of my favorite words, and it's not. You have to be intentional To be intentional.
Bob Goodwin:That's meta intentional, yes, but why is intentional such a big word for you?
Cheryl Kish:Um, because it takes discipline and if you're intentional, you're going to. You know the gap is going to be less, the misalignment is going to be less, less. Um, I often work with leaders and I call it intentional communication, right. And so how can you have intentionality, intentional collaboration? So, if you understand the emotional intelligence behind it and what it takes to be very intentional in your communication, very intentional when you're building high performing teams. It takes focus to do that, but you are going to.
Cheryl Kish:It might seem like oh gosh, but that's going to take time to do that, but you're saving time by being intentional on the front end with project planning, with prioritization. I love that you talked about that. You have a meeting every week with your partner, right with with your colleague. So, having a cadence, even though people might go, your leadership team might say, well, we just talked about that. Why do we have to have a monthly cadence? Well, because you do, because you have changed, and so it's worth the time to get together and say where are we at with this priority? Are we hitting the mark? Is it working? Is it not? Do we need to adjust? And no more on these annual. We do this annual strategy right? Yes, you do, but it's really got to be quarterly.
Bob Goodwin:Well, you mentioned AI earlier and this wouldn't be a proper podcast if we didn't say AI for a minute. But the world's just changing so quickly, right, and business models are being disrupted, new technologies being introduced, external factors that are acting and you're right, you can't just set it and forget it, because the world didn't just go on pause while you're doing all this stuff and if you're not reviewing it, you know definitely more than annually, quarterly for sure. Yeah, it seems like a recipe for kind of going off course or people not remembering or like whatever it could be. We also talk you were talking about people and I want to focus on that when you're building teams or you're helping your clients build teams, what are some of the qualities that you really gravitate to or are looking for?
Cheryl Kish:Well, it's really what's the client looking for. And so again, I'm gonna go back to the behaviors that will show up, that'll you know. They're living the core values and all of that. And so once you understand that it's, then I always start with know thyself first. So if we're working with a team, it's making sure that individuals within that intact team let's say, as an example understand that in order to be a leader, you're leader of self first. So let's start there. Then let's look at okay, now, how do you work with others? How do I understand others? So I, I have this awareness, the emotional intelligence piece and all of that who I am and how I show up and the strengths and the gifts that I bring. But then also, now, what does bob bring and and what does you know susan bring, and that sort of thing. And then what's it going to take to leverage all of that so that we're taking our unique skills and talents? But we're all focused on driving you know team as an effective, high performing team. We're all focused on driving those business results. And how are we doing that?
Cheryl Kish:And then I'm working with a group now just this week and we met and we did a little exercise on. You know how do you believe you're showing up as this leadership team today, but future state, two years from now. You know how do you believe you're showing up as this leadership team today, but future state, two years from now. You know if all of these business results, and that you know, and you were asked how did you make that happen? What, what would your commitments to each other be? You know how you're engaging with each other, what you're committing to each other.
Cheryl Kish:How did you do that? And so it was a really eye-opening exercise, because the team realized I need to be this, I need to do this for you, for you, for you, and they got all excited about it. So you know, depending on, at the end of the day, no matter what the organization or what the team, there's a goal they're trying to hit together as the team. So understanding how they do that self and how they do that with others is going to be the most important thing.
Bob Goodwin:Are there assessments or other tools that you like or that you would recommend to help people understand themselves and then kind of collectively understand themselves as a team?
Cheryl Kish:Well, in my coaching, so in my, if I may, in my coaching, I, you know, I use a. We go through a process, life story process, mental models, you know that sort of thing, understanding the non-conscious beliefs that might be there that are driving how I show up today. Right, my automatic, so that's with individuals, and then also 360 assessments. I personally like to do 360 assessments or have them done, have my coaches that work with me. They do them in person. It's not an automated. I'm just going to send out this, right it's. I know I'm going to interview these folks in order to get you really good feedback on how you're showing up as an individual from their perspective. The mental models help to say, oh gosh, that's probably why I'm showing up like that.
Cheryl Kish:And then the other one that I really love is it's called a personal threat profile. And my dear colleague Phil I really love is it's called a personal threat profile. And my dear colleague, phil Dixon, you mentioned the Oxford Brain Institute, it's called the PTP, and so it's identifying triggers that are the triggers that cause us to go into this state of fear and threat. So if my, for example, I'm very high in autonomy, like I've learned that about myself. So when my autonomy you know, my ability to be, you know to have that autonomy is threatened, I'm going to, you know, show up. So becoming aware of what one's triggers are that put our brain into fear and threat instead of safety and comfort Also something that I love and you can. You can do that with teams. You can also do that with teams as well. And then even StrengthsFinders Everybody's familiar, you know, with StrengthsFinders. I love that and teams love that, because it's all positive psychology.
Bob Goodwin:Well, so I'm glad you ended on that one, because I do. We use StrengthsFinder at Career Club with our clients because we find that you talked about gifts and strengths earlier that people actually don't know them sometimes.
Cheryl Kish:Well.
Bob Goodwin:I don't know, bob, I just do what I do, well, okay, and what I love about that particular tool. It will give you your top five strengths. It'll put it in context of you know how you, as you say, how you show up right and when you're kind of at your best. You're probably doing these things In a more complete report. It also will show you what do they call it balconies and basements Like these. Have you know? There's a flip side to this coin, right? You know, bob, you're very strategic. The problem with that sometimes can be you don't pay enough attention to details.
Cheryl Kish:That's right.
Bob Goodwin:You find that tedious, true. So I need to find somebody like my wife is an accountant who thrives on details, or my colleague at work who's very good with details, because I'm unlikely to change in that, but what I really like about it and this gets back to confidence these are durable qualities about ourselves that don't have anything to do with the success of the company that I was at or lack of success at the company that I was at, and sometimes we'll tie too much of our self-worth to our job and not enough to how we were created, who we really are as people. And when you understand these qualities it drives some self-belief right. But it also drives the ability to articulate that now and to know how to express that. And between self-awareness and then the ability to articulate that now and to know how to express that, and between self-awareness and then the ability to articulate that is really, really important.
Bob Goodwin:And the third thing is identifying organizations back to our first word that align with who I am right.
Bob Goodwin:So if they really value, and their values are X, y and Z or this role even and that's kind of I know, that's not who I am, as much as I might want that job, it's probably not going to end well because there's this misalignment, but until you've gone through any of these tools, that will help you. And I love 360 too, because what we find I think sometimes people are afraid on 360s that they're going to hear stuff they don't want to hear what we find is, yeah, there's maybe a little dose of that, but what they really find is, cheryl, don't you remember like when you were leading this team, oh my gosh, you were so inspiring and the way that you got people. You know like. You saw that in me. And I think that actually people find a lot of positivity reflected back onto them that maybe they were just, you know, focused on getting the next task done and never really understood how they were actually contributing to the organization, the team, whatever.
Cheryl Kish:Yeah, I love that. You know it's really shifting the narrative on 360s is what you've just done, and that's exactly right. There's just as much positive. I always say look, as you're listening to this feedback, focus on the strengths, focus on the positives, because we're going to talk about those first. And yeah, maybe there's going to be a theme. Be a little theme here, a little lever that just has to be tweaked just a little bit, but I promise you that's. You know, that's what's going to come out of this. And just yesterday I was I was giving a 360 feedback, a summary, to someone, and and they were just so humbled and really full of gratitude for the positive comments that were coming through. So I'm glad that you shared that.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, and it's just true because I mean, look, you're the neuroscience person on this call, not me. But the real real is most people have a lot of self-doubt, their self-criticism, these narratives that we tell ourselves tend to not be really positive, and so when we get this feedback from other people, that's very affirming, it's like breathing life, it's like CPR, it's like breathing life back into people that sometimes we focus on you know the gap and we don't focus on the progress, on you know the gap and we don't focus on the progress. And so we're always kind of seeing what's not done, what we're not, and hearing who we are and how we do contribute is just it's life-giving to other people.
Cheryl Kish:It's so true. Well, our brains are wired to be looking five times more for, you know, use that thread again for what's wrong, what could hurt me, than it is for what's good and what's right and what won't hurt me. And so, again, it goes back to those belief systems that we're not even aware of until we become aware of them.
Bob Goodwin:Yep, well, and that is important to understand, I used to work with a guy that did facial coding, and I used to work with a guy that did facial coding, and so I'm going to mess this up a little bit. But, like, there's five core emotions happiness, surprise, sadness, anger, contempt. There might be a couple others, but the interesting thing is only one of those is positive, happy, one is neutral, surprise, oh crap, I wrecked my car. Oh goody, I won the lottery. And then the negative ones. So you're right I mean there's something to protect us that our emotions are generally, you know, kind of fear or protection or survival oriented.
Bob Goodwin:Yes, so that's why we need you know three to five times as much positive input to counteract the natural wiring that we've got to look for threats or what's wrong.
Cheryl Kish:Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, psychological pain, you know there's physical pain and psychological pain and you know physical pain can heal. Right, oh, I banged up my knee, but okay it's gonna heal. But that, that psychological pain, or that, you know, that social pain, it, it may never heal. So Fascinating, probably for another podcast.
Bob Goodwin:That is another podcast for sure, so start putting a bow on this one. What, what is the best career advice you've ever been given?
Cheryl Kish:To surround yourself with those that are subject matter area experts in areas you may not be. So learn cross-functionally to have a mentor.
Cheryl Kish:Seek out a mentor mentor seek out a coach if you can right and do that as early as possible as you can in your career. And um, I've had so many uh that that was given to me and I would give that to others. And um, I believe you oh, you just did a wonderful podcast with with someone that was talking about that but seeking out those who can help them map, map their careers and where they want to go.
Cheryl Kish:But that was a gift that was given to me and I still have a coach. You know, I still seek out my coach, or coaches, and my mentors.
Bob Goodwin:No, it's great. I actually just signed on with a coach myself because there's things that are not in my gifting that I need help with and I can pretend like it's not a problem. I can deal with it, right, and so I agree with you. I mean, I think everybody benefits from, you know, having a mentor, kind of a board of advisors. You know people that can speak to you in different aspects, you know. So somebody who's the encourager may not be the person that can give you some more challenging feedback, right, and you don't always need candy. Sometimes you need your vegetables. But, yeah, I think that's great. And you know, just surrounding yourself with people who aren't like you, we probably go down diversity right and inclusion, but getting multiple points of view only makes us stronger, it makes the team stronger and it sounds like and I know it is the kind of work that you help your clients do.
Cheryl Kish:Thank you.
Bob Goodwin:Is there anything that you would want to leave people with? And maybe it's well. I do want to, for sure, say, if people want to learn more about your consulting business, what's the best way for them to go contact you and learn more about that?
Cheryl Kish:Sure. So wwwdefine D-E-F-I-N-E consultingcom, and my number is right there too, so contact us or call me for sure. Thank you, Bob, for that, I you know. One last thing I'd like to say for those who are leaders in organizations that might be listening is I believe we owe it, as leaders in organizations, to provide a platform for the people that are working for you to become them their best selves. They may leave your organization right, they may not stay their whole career as a matter of fact, they probably won't but they're going to become voices for your organization even after they leave. So, as a leader, ask yourself what is my organization doing to help them grow personally and professionally, whether they're going to stay or they're going to exit? That's the legacy that you, as a leader and as an organization, can leave, so that those folks look back and thank you for that gift that you've offered them.
Bob Goodwin:Well, that's really, really powerful and you know it runs counterintuitive to a more transactional relationship. Like you know, we only have a relationship as long as you are getting a check from that company. But the reality is is that you're right? I mean, your brand is out there and what somebody's experience was is going to have a legacy effect and it probably is worth kind of going back to the value of alumni networks. Right, you've got advocates or brand detractors out there, but if you can build a tribe of alumni who are proud to have worked at your organization, what they got out of it, that pays massive dividends it does, and I can see their faces now.
Cheryl Kish:I can see you know back to you know our discussion on Hooters. I see the faces of these women in my mind's eye now who are leading organizations. You know their CHROs, their COOs, their moms, their nurses, their cancer survivors, survivors. I see their faces and I know how much that time meant to them in who they are today, and so that's the legacy that all organizations can strive for.
Bob Goodwin:Cheryl, that is the perfect note to end this on. Thank you so much. I'm glad we finally got this scheduled. I knew it was going to be awesome. It is even better than I thought, so thank you so much for everything that you shared and everybody. Thank you so much for taking a few minutes to spend some of your day with us today. We thank you for that. And again, just back to the original encouragement if you or someone you love is in job search, please go to careerclub. Click on the banner for our Thursday calls at 1 o'clock Eastern, and we'd love to see you there, cheryl, thank you so much.
Cheryl Kish:Thank you.
Bob Goodwin:Okay.
