Career Club Live with Bob Goodwin
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Career Club Live with Bob Goodwin
Mastering Career Growth and Personal Branding with Jenny Fernandez
Unlock the secrets of career growth and personal branding with Jenny Fernandez, a distinguished leadership and organizational coach, and professor at Columbia University and NYU. Hear her inspiring journey from her roots in the Dominican Republic to her impactful roles in consulting and brand management at global giants like Accenture and Kraft Foods. This episode promises to reveal how Jenny managed the Oreo brand across Asia Pacific, including China and India, and the invaluable lessons she learned along the way. Her story is not just about professional success but also about the strength derived from family ties and cultural traditions.
Discover how to craft a compelling personal brand strategy with insights from Jenny, a former marketing powerhouse turned full-time leadership and team coach. By reflecting on your strengths, passions, and gathering honest feedback from trusted peers, Jenny explains how you can elevate your career. She shares her passion for urban hiking, yoga, and meditation, and how these activities help her stay balanced and centered. This episode is brimming with practical advice on understanding and communicating your unique professional attributes, ensuring you stand out in your field.
Finally, we explore the critical importance of soft skills in today’s technology-driven world. Jenny discusses strategic thinking, communication, and system thinking, emphasizing their role in navigating modern workplaces. Learn why empathy, active listening, and resilience are essential for adapting to constant change and achieving career success. From unlocking career growth with self-awareness to mastering strategic branding and networking, this episode equips you with actionable strategies to enhance your personal brand and expand your professional relationships. Don’t miss out on this opportunity to learn from experts who have successfully navigated and thrived in their careers.
Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live. Thank you so much for joining us. For those of you who are in job search mode right now, or those that you might know someone who is and I think everybody does at this point just want to encourage people to go to careerclub and register for our free coaching calls that we do every Thursday. It's a group coaching call, it's one hour, it is at one o'clock Thursdays, Eastern time, and we would encourage, whether you're in job search or know someone who is to join, that. It's always free, no selling, just what we hope is high quality coaching for you.
Speaker 1:So today's episode I am really excited. I got to meet Jenny Fernandez through our mutual friend, Dori Clark, and if you know who Dori is, she's amazing, Turns out. She hangs out with amazing people. So let me just read a little bit about Jenny's background and I think you'll know why I'm excited to have her on today. So Jenny Fernandez is a leadership and organizational coach and professor at Columbia University and New York University, NYU. Ginny partners with organizations and senior leaders to enhance leadership effectiveness, instill accountability and boost business delivery through collaboration, innovative thinking and skill development. Ginny's got a really rich background as a former chief marketing officer and senior executive at a number of Fortune 500 companies, and she brings decades of industry experience. She's recognized as a top voice in executive coaching and leadership development and is dedicated to driving transformational change and fostering transformational growth. Join us as we dive into insights on career management, personal branding and navigating the future of work. And with that, wow, Jenny welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, bob, and I'm very excited to be here with your audience.
Speaker 1:No, thank you. So this is great. Yeah, I probably did a little bit of a disservice to all of your credentials, and I know that we'll get into some of this in just a minute, so as is our want to do. If we could just do a few icebreaker questions so people can get to know you, would that be okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that sounds fantastic, thank you.
Speaker 1:Awesome, so very easy one to start off with. Where were you born and raised?
Speaker 2:Yes, so actually I was born in the Dominican Republic and I was in the Caribbean until I was 12. And then I transitioned to New York City, and that this is where I have been for most of my life.
Speaker 1:Awesome, very cool. So Dominicana. The Dominican accent crushes me. So instead of como esta, como esta, it's like S's are optional with a Dominican accent, at least that's my experience. So now we talked about that. You're in Columbia, but where did you do your college work?
Speaker 2:We talked about that you're at NYU in Columbia, but where did you do your college work? Yes, so actually I went to my undergrad to Columbia University and I pursued two different degrees. I went to Columbia College, which is the liberal arts side of the university, and, believe it or not, I actually pursued the least artsy major that I could find, which was math, least artsy major that I could find which was math, and the reason for that was because I was just great at it. I love problem solving. I think you're going to see that thread throughout my career choices and my pivots. And then I also went to the engineering school and there I did operations research, which you could say is the least engineering major I could find in the school, and what I loved about it, which is again this idea of problem solving You're looking at the operations of a business, of a team, trying to optimize and get the best possible solution. So that has really, I think, impacted how I think and even, frankly, how I write, which I could tell you more later.
Speaker 1:I think we'll get into that. And so just very quickly, just a little bit about your family.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yes. So I have a very tight family, as you know. As I mentioned earlier, I am Latina, latinx, so obviously I am very close to my parents my sister, a pet mom and somebody who I always have Sunday supper with my parents.
Speaker 1:That is very traditional and very cool, so I think that's nice. And then, so you just alluded to this, but do you mind just painting a quick picture of your career arc and sounds like some of the choices that you made and why you made them of?
Speaker 2:your career arc and sounds like some of the choices that you made and why you made them. Yes, no, definitely. Thank you, bob. So I truly followed the more traditional career choices up until, I would say, 2015. And what I mean by that was I started my career in a major consulting firm, one of the top five at the time, accenture and I pursued again a great consulting track record, getting to know amazing clients, you know, from Nordstrom to JCPenney. And then what I did was go back to business school again, checking off all of the milestones that we quote unquote were expected to follow as a great business leader, kind of business leader.
Speaker 2:And then I did another pivot. I decided that I truly wanted to see the end to end of the recommendations that I was delivering for my clients. So I wanted to really again be a business owner and what I did was, when I studied marketing, I joined Kraft Foods in the brand management side, and what that allowed me Bob was really again to in the brand management side. And what that allowed me Bob was really again to own a business, have a P&L management, manage people Again, truly be very creative and innovative with developing new products as well. And it took me also abroad, which I think was a fantastic experience. Where did you go? Yeah, so I had the opportunity to move to China. So I was in China for three years and I was actually managing the Oreo brand, the Oreo cookie brand, in all of Asia Pacific. So China, india, australia, korea, japan and Southeast Asia.
Speaker 1:And then what happened after you left Kraft.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so. So Kraft slash Mondelez. You know it was kind of a company that got divided into two, that got divested. So after my time with both companies I decided to join a service company which was called Merlin Entertainments. It's a British company that actually focuses on attractions, and the reason for that, bob, was I pretty much had under my belt kind of the business ownership, the product side. But when I came back from China I saw the world truly evolve in the US and really services industry with direct-to-consumer, with the internet was just exploding.
Speaker 1:Cool, and then. So you were at Merlin. And then, where did you leave? What?
Speaker 2:Sorry Bob, can you repeat that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you went to Merlin after you got back. Where did you go from there?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, no, thank you. So my journey kept basically going from large Fortune 500 companies to medium size, and then I actually joined a privately held company, kind of almost like a startup company, because in the US I joined a company called Loacker. They are an Italian company, family owned, but it was very, very new in the US, very well established abroad, almost 100 years old, but in the US it was just a couple of years old and we were looking to grow the business. And it was an opportunity that came to me as a result of a prior professional relationship, somebody that I had known for over 10 years.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then one of the things that I want to make sure that we don't skip past, so that people really kind of understand some of your credentials. You became associated with Marshall Goldsmith and his coaching and consulting business. Can you explain what that is and what that credential really means?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, of course. So Marshall Goldsmith as many of you might know, he's a fantastic thought leader, one of the most famous coaches CEO coaches in the world and he has created kind of a legacy project where he has a philanthropic community where he's able to truly give away his knowledge and he creates really a community that is based on connection. So he did this. I believe he started it back in 2017, where, literally, he was looking to get like 15 people in the community and he had 18,000 people apply on LinkedIn. So with that, he established the MG100.
Speaker 2:It became a 100 person community at the beginning and I had the opportunity to join a couple of years ago. It is an by invitation only community, so definitely they want people who are thought leaders, who are, again, people who have been very successful in their careers as well and who are looking to give back. It's about really creating kind of a philanthropic approach, about paying it forward. So I was very, very happy to join and that's a community that I always kind of rely to and work with as my board of directors.
Speaker 1:And what is the current version of Ginny doing these days?
Speaker 2:Yes, as I embrace my portfolio career, as you have heard. So the current version of me I have transitioned to become a full-time leadership coach and team coach, as well as continue to move forward with my thought leadership. I am very active on LinkedIn, so I invite you to connect with me there. I create a lot of content and I also am a contributor to Harvard Business Review and Fast Company, and I create again a lot of content that HR leaders, people managers and business owners might find very valuable as well.
Speaker 1:Well, that I can say as a fact. So, having read some of your articles and again I'm so appreciative of Dory getting us introduced because you are producing a lot of really, really high quality content so thank you, and I know you'll be sharing a little bit of that today. Last question, then we'll dive into it. What do we find Ginny doing when you're not doing all these amazing business transformation things and coaching?
Speaker 2:Oh no, thank you. Thank you for that. I am truly a New Yorker by choice. I love my city, so you probably will find me. You know my center park walking. I love the urban hiking. I love yoga as well, so that's something that really, I think, gives me kind of yoga and meditation, that balance that we all need to recharge and just basically keep centered.
Speaker 1:So you'll definitely find me doing that with friends and family. So let's jump into this, and I think there's a really kind of cool starting point here that leverages a couple of things that you're experiencing that you're known for including. I want to start on personal branding. So right, you're a classically trained marketer, right from craft slash, mondelez on big brands like Oreo, but then there's also the career coaching, the executive coaching piece. So could you just kind of start to riff for a minute on what a personal brand means to you, why it's important and how maybe people should be thinking about their own.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, thank you, definitely, bob. I mean, as a lifelong career marketer, I have truly, I think, developed my thought leadership and my knack and my knowledge base on building household names Right. So, as I mentioned, brands like Oreo post cereals, cream of wheat I mean, you name it, wheat things, triscuit. So my goal is to take all of those marketing principles and theories and strategies that I have already leveraged to create, you know, household names to help business leaders like have to establish their name and truly create a network that is able to help elevate what they do, help elevate the people that they manage and the company. It adds values across all of those different vectors.
Speaker 1:So, but I really do want to double click on personal brand. For some people, personal brand means well, I'm on LinkedIn a lot and I post a lot of content right, or you know I'm known as the class clown or like things that I think are maybe not the exact point of a personal brand. Fundamentals of these household brands what are the transferable?
Speaker 2:elements for someone who's looking to create their kind of professional brand. Yeah, no, definitely so. When you go back to basics, it's about really identifying what is the clear message that defines and communicates who you are as a professional. So I always advise my clients to first have a moment of self-reflection so that you can ask yourself you know, what are you good at? What drives passion? You know, because you need to understand again what makes you who you are. So, for me, I can give you an example Part of my personal brand is being an innovator.
Speaker 2:I am a very creative thinker. I also have kind of the proof in the pudding, which is I spent years working in innovation and prior companies. So that is something that I want to communicate and that I also want to help business leaders with. So, when you think about yourself, identify three elements that you think really truly define who you are, and then ask others. Basically do a personal audit. Ask people who you know and trust. I would say find three to five people from your mentors, maybe prior bosses. I would say not to ask family, because they love you and they will not really be as honest and really honest as you need them to be, but you need people who are going to be honest and tell you what are the them to be. But you need people who are going to be honest and tell you what are the three attributes that come up for them when they think about you. This is a typical, actually career question that you may get when you go into an interview.
Speaker 1:What does your?
Speaker 2:manager think about you? What does your director of reports think about you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I really appreciate you mentioning that, because I don't think enough people do that and it's a very basic step and I think what you'll also find is that you know people see you at different stages of your career. They see from different angles depending on the kind of work that you were doing and how you contributed to projects and initiatives, you know, during the course of your professional relationship and initiatives during the course of your professional relationship. And that's one.
Speaker 1:Two is, in our experience, people also tend to be pretty humble and it feels like bragging to a lot of people. And when someone can say you know, gosh, I think you're like one of the most innovative people that I know. Like I've seen you be so creative, like when we were in China working on Oreos and you had the insight that allowed us to go do X. Well, you may not have thought that was particularly amazing, I just do what I do, but that was notable for that person. That's one and then two, another, I think think big benefit of this back to being like people don't want to brag is if somebody, like as she said in an interview, said you know, bob, you know what?
Speaker 1:how would you sort of describe yourself? You know? That's a great question, jenny. Thank you for asking. You know, I've asked people that I've worked with before how they and what I've heard was, and then you kind of put it in the subjective third party, instead of saying I am a strategic, creative problem solver. What I have been told throughout my career is this and it's like it gives you a way of saying it that doesn't feel like bragging, that also kind of brings some authority with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I would definitely say you need both, Because sometimes the way people describe you is not the new future self you're looking to create.
Speaker 2:And this is especially for people who are in transition, whether it's getting a new job or figuring out what is your next stage in life. As you reach those peak levels of your pivots in your career, the people who are closest to you see who you have been, but not the potential that you have. So this is why you know it's a balance. How do you again combine those two and really have that inner discussion and say do they see me, how I see myself and what I'm looking to create? And again, there's nothing wrong with that. They're supporters and they see you and whatever they say is fantastic, but it may not be the next phase that you're looking to drive, Right, I think many people usually hear when they're looking to go to the executive level oh, you need to be more strategic. Maybe you already feel that you are strategic, but obviously they're not seeing you in that light and that means you need to get to work to prove that. So I think there is a balance and that means you need to get to work to prove that.
Speaker 1:So I think there is a balance, yeah, and I appreciate that because, at the end of the day, we own our message, nobody else owns our message. And to your earlier point, just being strategic, well, maybe when they saw you you were in a less strategic role or your contribution that was required at that time might have been more tactical, and that's OK because that was execution oriented. So you, so you know it's a great great point that you're making um with. With respect to brand also, you know you've I like what you said you've had this portfolio career and sometimes people get stuck and I'll give you my word picture for this in a minute but well, like, should I talk about the consulting work that I've done, or should I talk about math? Should I talk about when I was a marketer? Should I talk about the coaching? And they get confused on. Like I don't know how to synthesize these disparate experiences.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:How do you talk to yourself? How would you talk to a client about synthesizing things that might feel unrelated and therefore kludgy? There's a good New York word for you Kludgy in putting together a coherent brand statement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, thank you for that. I think that that is a great question and a challenge that many folks go through. So I would advise you to even go a level higher. It's not necessarily about the different careers that you've had. It's really about the transferable skills that you have learned, that you can you know.
Speaker 2:Again, that cuts across like what is that threat, that storyline that cuts across your entire life career right behind that narrative. So I think that will help identify again what are you good at? Are you that commercial lead, you know? Are you that person who, as I mentioned, is that innovator? Are you the strategic thinker? That can happen regardless of your job title. So I think it's again understanding kind of those, especially the soft skills. These days, bob, as we see a lot of work being automated, we really need to go back to those human skills that make us who we are and make us great, so that we can talk about a message and a story that is cohesive, that can go across your entire life, because everything that we have done has built and added to who we are as a person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, jenny, thank you for saying that, and that is so for people who are listening to this. What Jenny just shared, I think, is one of the key takeaways that you should take, which is how do you create this coherent through line, this coherent narrative that pulls it all together? Again, just going in the context of interviewing, it's incumbent upon you to create that through line, not for the other person to kind of piece it together themselves. You own that lift, if I can say it that way, so I think that's really, really important.
Speaker 1:I want to pick up Jenny on soft skills for just a second. I want to pick up Jenny on soft skills for just a second. When you're working with your executive clients this might be an unfair way of asking the question, so you can fix my question Are there like two, three, five soft skills that you see, you know, moving forward in this technology-oriented world that we live in, where the pace and rate of change is, just, you know, ever increasing the magnitude of change? What are maybe the top three soft skills that you would encourage people to be thinking about and how they can manifest those?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, thank you. That's really a great question and I advise everyone, like the World Economic Forum has published last year, you know what are the top skills as of 2023, but also what are the trending skills for the next four to five years and the ones that resonated the most. There was a mix. Some are hard skills, obviously, like AI technology, big data, but most of them were soft skills, cognitive skills, like strategic thinking. Right, are you able, as you mentioned, bob, are you able to connect the dots and create a story? So strategic thinking is definitely one of them I advise everyone to think about how can you frame what you do in a way that shows the strategy behind it and that you are looking at the bigger picture.
Speaker 2:The second one that I would advise is strategic communications, this idea of storytelling right, how are you able to communicate and flex your communication style to different people? You will not talk to your direct reports or your peers the same way as you manage up and speak up or manage externally to clients and to the outside world. So having that flexibility and those toolkits, I think, is definitely key. And then the third one that I leave you with is almost is this idea of system thinking Everything that we do, you know we want to make sure that we're looking at how does it work together. It's very strategic, but it's also something that can be operationalized. So it's just when you think about the system. It allows you to scale what you're doing and have a bigger impact.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate that. I'm going to just pick up on the second one that you said, which was strategic communication. We talk to our clients a lot about this because in the word picture I use it's like remixing a song. Melody is the same, but I adjust. It might be more hip hop, more rock and roll, more country, depending on how the audience needs to hear it for them to be able to understand and accept what you're trying to communicate. And so sometimes you know we just press play and I tell this story or I communicate this the same way, just by rote, instead of going. She's more of a facts and figures kind of person. I probably need to kind of just focus on that. The other person might need to hear about how this was collaborative, how this was a team effort, this wasn't just me, me, me and being able to nuance and be sensitive to you. Know how does this person need to hear this for them to be able to best process it.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and really well said, bob, because basically, what that has underneath is a strong knowledge about the to hear this, for them to be able to best process it. Thank you, and really well said, Bob, because basically what that has underneath is a strong knowledge about the audience. Who is receiving this message right? How are they going to actually receive it so that you're being effective? And then, as you mentioned, really, what kind of a story am I telling? Ultimately, what is the goal that I'm looking to create? Is there a decision that I want them to take? Is this just information? And, frankly, if we bring it back to the workplace now, with up to five generations in the workplace, everybody hears things in a very different way. So how do you communicate a message that speaks to their values and their objectives?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to your point I mean, what do we have four generations in the workplace right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes up to five, but yes, right.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, so it's just like being sensitive. A couple other things that I would add to what you're talking about. One is empathy, trying to understand where the other person's coming from, a bias for listening. Yes, right, and again, I know these are common sense things, jenny, I'm not trying to educate you on any of this. The other one that's very top of mind, and maybe you could just comment on this one for a minute, is resilience, because change just continues, you know, to come, and it's coming faster, and the magnitude of change, you know, is more pronounced. And oftentimes and I think this is just sort of back to you know, our reptilian brain we're threatened by change, right, and so it's a problem to be dealt with instead of an opportunity. How do you think about resilience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, thank you. I think the traditional definition of resilience right has been being able to bounce back from a setback. But I think again, as you mentioned, bob, change is coming at us because of technology advances faster and faster and all of us went through the major change because of nature right With the pandemic a couple of years back and, to be honest, there was no going back. We now speak about, oh, that was pre-pandemic. We have never and will never go back to what it was, even mentally. But what I think now we need to reset and redefine resilience in terms of again bouncing back. I see it as catapulting forward right. We need to define what is the new future we want to create.
Speaker 2:Now, as we are in the onset of the fourth industrial revolution with AI, we don't know what the future is going to look like.
Speaker 2:So this is why I kind of work with a lot of my clients to really again go back to the basics, as you mentioned, when you were mentioning those different things, the empathy, et cetera, I was kind of writing down you know we truly need to embrace being a lifelong learner, that growth mindset, so that you know we truly need to embrace being a lifelong learner, that growth mindset, so that, you know, we may be at a stage where we don't no longer have life's milestones like business school or, you know, a computer-based course. We now have to be the source. How do we create the learning moments right, those friction moments so that we can learn and help ourselves and our careers be future-proof. I think that moments so that we can learn and help ourselves and our careers be future-proof, I think that's something that we really need to embrace as we, you know, again continue to face so much change, so that we can be truly resilient.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate what you're saying and I think this also maybe we can start to pivot into career management. Because Maybe we can start to pivot into career management because I'm picking up on your point about curiosity and learning agility Because let's just say for argument's sake that we've sort of mapped out hard skills, soft skills, things like that, some of that thread of who I am to your earlier point, some of that thread of who I am to your earlier point. The second kind of circle, it as we're building out a Venn diagram here is what am I actually interested in? Like what am I curious about?
Speaker 1:And I you could disagree with this, I don't know, but I try and stop short of the word passion, because sometimes that sets an unrealistically high bar in people's minds. That's unattainable. But what are you interested in? What do you care about? Whether it's a technology, a people group, a category of product or service, but something that you're genuinely interested in because it's going to keep changing and you need to continue to learn about it. And if it's just a grind like I got to read this other thing because I have to versus this is a topic I care about. I'm genuinely interested in this topic. You're going to stay on top of it because you want to stay on top of it, not because you have to stay on top of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. Well said. It's about finding kind of the intersection of your career and something that is interesting. So that adjacency, because then if you're able to create something interesting with that intersection, then that potentially drives growth. I'll give you an example I'm not even in that field yet, but health care has been strong and continuously growing. But now the biggest investors in health care are technology companies and that is driving innovation through AI, faster production of medicine, et cetera, and I think that that intersection is interesting for some people. And I think that that intersection is interesting for some people. So, find what is the interesting aspect of your career that is potentially driving growth, so that you are again not in a place that is stale, but again really driven. And finding about that word passion. Not sure if you follow to put 10,000 hours in. You just do something that you like and then you realize that, well, I don't like it anymore, maybe that's not my passion. Then you want to shift versus if you're great at something, you're going to get passionate about it, right, that's true.
Speaker 2:Right. One example I'll just. As I mentioned, I was born in the ER, so English is not my first language. I would have never imagined myself becoming a writer, an author or a thought leader, but I chose. I decided this is something I want to pursue to unlock growth in my career, and I became passionate about it growth in my career and then became passionate about it, yep Well so.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to tie a couple of things together. One is what you just said. I chose that we have autonomy and we have agency to make these choices, and you know that we're we're not passive in in this journey, that this is we're we're active participants. In fact we actually have the steering wheel if we choose to take the steering wheel. And so I really like what you said, that this is what you chose to go do, and it's something that's born out of you innately instead of being forced on you extrinsically, which again, that's friction. That's work right, and we don't really get to a flow state when we're fighting ourselves, essentially. So to Scott's point you know, for me that's part of the first circle is what I'm actually good at right. Then to your well-made point, that's also going to inform what I can get passionate about, because I'm likely to see success in stuff that I'm good at right, and so there's a kind of a multiplier effect there.
Speaker 1:And then to weave in your healthcare example, that's really kind of the third circle in what's essentially Jim Collins' hedgehog concept of you know, what am I good at? What do I care about what drives my economic model, where is the future going? Where are opportunities right? That will reward. And this is really maybe where we can start to bring some of the marketing principles into play here. Jen, if you could guide me in this is what's the product or service that I'm selling? What's my unique value proposition? What is my brand? And then what we're saying is who's the target audience for this that has these needs? You mentioned transferable skills, so where they're going to appreciate those transferable skills, not me trying to swim upstream and convince somebody of these things, but that they're actually going to recognize, appreciate and reward those transferable skills. So maybe we could use that to kind of start to transition a little bit into career management and career direction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, definitely Thank you. Thank you, bob, I really appreciate it. You know how you connected the dots. And for me, that growth aspect. I always challenge my clients and everyone to think about it as problem solution. There has to be a problem you need to, you're looking to solve for, and this is where the growth is. If there's no problem and I don't know if you heard this, bob, I usually talk about you want to be the aspirin, not the vitamin. The aspirin I need because I have a problem. I may have a headache. The vitamin is a nice to have. You have to convince them they might not do. It is something we ideally all want, but reality don't really want to pay for it or execute it. So if you understand what is that problem, then and you match that back, you know, am I passionate about this? Am I good at it? That I can be distinctive and differentiated from others, and then that will fuel itself because you're going to see success right. Success attracts success.
Speaker 1:Yep. So so if you were sitting down with and she is trying to figure out what she wants to do next, whether she's stagnating in her current role, losing interest in what her current company does, maybe she's in job transition and somebody pressed the pause button for her and she's getting reflective, how would you maybe it's a young person, I mean pick the scenario. But how would you kind of help people identify a process? You talked about frameworks, systems. How do you help coach people in this sort of identifying what the next five or 10 years should look like?
Speaker 2:Yes, no, of course. So I think it goes back to where we started, really having those reflection moments to understand and ask yourself you know what drives me, what is of my interest? Or you know, quote unquote, passion. But frankly, also it has to where do I have my achievements? Because you always need the proof, right? I cannot say I want to be a pianist if I've never even sat down to play the piano. So where have you built that proof so that you can again truly say I am good at this? This is something that drives me.
Speaker 2:And I go back to your band diagram. Really, I guess, marrying back to do I have the brand that supports that? Because in order to build that, what's next? You need to create both a push and pull strategy. People need to be looking for you, recommending you, referring you. So with that means that you need to be part of the conversation, you need to be contributing and telling people what are you an expert in, what can they count on you for, so that people feel confident that I can recommend Bob for XYZ, you know, career or job opportunity in the future. So I think again that self-awareness and self-audit, understanding your reputation so that reputational management, and also, frankly, again, understanding who is in your network, who is going to be able to be those people recommending you once you have the ask, because you have to again start promoting yourself, and it goes back to one myth about branding that you mentioned this idea that self-promotion is bragging.
Speaker 2:Yes that you mentioned this idea that self-promotion is bragging. Yes, and I think when I coach clients, some of the initial mindset work that we need to do is identifying what are the assumptions that they're bringing in, so that we can work on letting that go, because many times we're the ones that are closing the door. Nobody has closed the door because we haven't even asked.
Speaker 1:Are there common assumptions that you see people making?
Speaker 2:Yes, sometimes it's my work will speak for itself, right? So this idea that my reputation, my work, whether internally or externally, will do the magic. Again, as I mentioned that, the bragging aspect, you know, we were told to do a good job and with our heads down and magic will happen. And then the third one is just honestly not knowing where to start. So I think that that's part of the if I offer to your audience. If they go to my website, just jennifernandezcom I have a free ebook on personal branding that they can download as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, I can't recommend that enough, putting this in marketing principles, because we started kind of also dipping our toe in networking and outreach. The analogy that I use is that oftentimes and again this is in the context of people in job search mode, but this could be outside of that is people saying you need to network, you need to network, you need to network If you don't know your brand first. To me it's like buying a Super Bowl spot with bad creative. You have a lot of GRPs way to go, you're in front of a lot of people, but your creative is no good. You're actually doing your brand harm, right, because, oh no, I talked to Bob and that was not a great experience.
Speaker 1:So the idea is and this is sequential is that you know one, you need to get your mind in a good place, and I like your thing with the assumptions and let's kind of clear out some head trash or wrong thinking and like let's kind of get your mind in a good place. That's first. Second is get on message, and I think what you've been describing, jenny, is phenomenal to help create that through line, that narrative, create that through line, that narrative. Then we're ready to go distribute that message right, and start to do the networking piece. Would you concur with that or would you add to that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know 100% and, as you mentioned, you know kind of that self-work. That needs to happen first, and I think, after that happens and you have that clear message, maybe the one thing that I would add is identifying all of the different platforms available to you, because I think everybody knows LinkedIn. Obviously you're going to update your profile you may update your resume if you're looking for a new career as well but also, frankly, re-engaging with the people that you already know because they know your old self. So you're reinventing, as Dory would say, your identity. So you have to reintroduce yourself with that new message and this new identity, the new brand that you're looking to create, and that will be part of the process.
Speaker 1:And then that's a great ad. I'm sorry, that's just a great great reintroducing yourself with this new branding. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:No, no, no problem. So, yeah, so, reintroducing to your current network and then proactively you know, bob, as you mentioned, thinking about how who else do I need in my network as I build my new self? Because then you are proactively reaching out to them and owning your new identity. They don't know the old you, so owning your new identity is a great way to practice. They're going to be even more open than the people that knew who you were before, because this is basically the new you, who you're quote unquote selling, because, right, personal branding is about also selling yourself. Uh, you know your, your career, your services.
Speaker 1:If you would become a solopreneur, yeah, one of the quick things, um, because I want to talk networking in more detail within a second. But on this whole bragging thing, you mentioned this earlier and I just want to underscore it that when we're focused on accomplishments, those are facts. And one of my little isms is adjectives are not accomplishments. When we declare these things right, I'm a strategic creative problem solver, blah, blah, blah. Ok, rather than declare it, can you just demonstrate it? Show me where you've done this before.
Speaker 1:It's actually a lot less braggy than trying to attach all these you know self, you know proclaiming adjectives of I'm awesome, versus. Let me just show you some of the body of work that I've done Right. Here's what I believe contributed to that body of work. That's a different dynamic than just sort of saying I'm awesome and you know I'm creative problem solver, blah, blah, blah. On assumptions I think this will probably be true at least it is in my experience. Can you talk about the assumption that networking is gross, it's manipulative, I don't want to do it, and how you get people over that hump?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, of course, and I don't know if you guys know about Robert Cialdini. He's a professor, an author, who wrote basically the book called Influence and also Persuasion. It's a fantastic book that really double clicks on this topic. So he talks about a couple of things. You know this idea of social proof, as you mentioned, bob, just stating you know, stating all the facts, all the associations that you've had, whether it's prior companies, schools that you have attended right or degrees that you have, it just gives basically the fact that me, as a busy individual, look at your profile, look at your resume and say, oh, we have a shared experience, we have something in common. I don't need anything else, I don't need a testimonial. I know that they have been quote unquote vetted. I think that already helps alleviate again some of the concern. And you mentioned I think it was about this idea right of bragging as well.
Speaker 2:Even if you are a business leader working in the corporate world, frankly use your version of a testimonial meaning in LinkedIn, for example, you can get people to recommend you, people who worked for you, you know who managed you, peers, even agency partners, and that just shows within your environment. You know, quote unquote a way to vet you and to again share what kind of a great leader and expert you are, you and to again share what kind of a great leader and expert you are, as you mentioned earlier. You know, bob, sometimes we do need other people to recognize us as leaders and then, like we always say in marketing and you mentioned earlier, show them. Don't you know? Don't tell me, show me. Whenever you have, for example, in LinkedIn, a section about your career, show them the great things that you created. You can use media to share what you did. You can even obviously quantify, but if you're able to show them in real life something that they can connect with, it just makes it more memorable, insightful and something that everyone can relate to.
Speaker 1:So what? I want to start being mindful of the time here for a second with. Just if you were coaching somebody to think about how to have the most productive quality networking call with somebody, what would some of the principles be that you would share with them?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. So in order to make, as you mentioned earlier, in order to make networking sound less dirty really, I'm a big fan of Adam Grant, so I always recommend to approach any networking conversation or even a LinkedIn outreach, right, a little message that you have just again to communicate what do you have in common, why do you think that it will be great for you both to connect? So with that? It's just a little research, looking in detail at their LinkedIn or even doing a Google search and say, oh, I see that we have a shared network, we have a passion for marketing or leadership. I see that if we again we have similar associations, went to the same school, identify something you have in common or, frankly, just admire the work that they're doing, because at the end of the day, you have to give them a reason why are you interested?
Speaker 2:And look at it as a long term event. You're not going to ask them for 15 minutes a coffee chat, a job, a referral. Going to ask them for 15 minutes a coffee chat, a job, a referral that's a big no-no, that's a red flag. Nobody's going to accept that. Networking it's really about first being curious, trying to get to know that person, what do they stand for, what are they interested about, so that as you continue to build that long-term professional relationship, you then can have you know, truly a point that is a commonality, and then later on maybe you can have that ask those 15 minutes, that recommendation, and really truly get to know them at a personal level.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So two things that really stand out to me. One, maybe three Authenticity, right. Yes, again, that's what takes I like the word. That's what takes the dirtiness out of it is I'm being genuine. If this is an authentic outreach, I'm not trying to be a bad person, because I'm not a bad person. I generally, you know, admire your work or whatever you say. Two is we'll do our third name drop on Dory.
Speaker 1:This is the long game, this is playing the long game, right, and that it shouldn't be transactional. We are building relationships, we're making new friends. We're not trying to just use you for something, which leads to the third point. You mentioned Adam Grant. I thought you were going to say give and take, right. So for a relationship to be healthy, right, you can't be a net taker, right.
Speaker 1:So I believe that one of the real big unlocks in networking is to be very intentional about looking for opportunities to add value to them. How can I be of help to you, jenny? What does help look like for you? Is it an introduction? Are you trying to hire somebody that might be in my network? Is there a subject matter expert that I know that maybe I could connect you with? You know how? What does help look like for you?
Speaker 1:And and because oftentimes and this would be the kind of the give and take thing is, you know, net takers in his, in his work might spike early that they're successful, right Cause they, they're taking, but the the long game, they end up not being the winners of the long game. It's the givers who are the winners and there's an intermediate ground of traders, right? Well, you know, this is all very transactional. If you introduce me to this person, I'll introduce. It's like no, just like do good For me.
Speaker 1:The real principle is sowing and reaping. Just like do good For me. The real principle is sowing and reaping. If you just sow help, the natural course of events is you're going to get help because that's what you've been sowing in your relationships. And that's where we see kind of the fever break for people with networking is when they're like oh, I can actually be a good person, I can do this consistent with my identity and help other people. And help is naturally going to come back to me over time. I can do that and that's where we've seen people have success.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, thank you, bob, and I'll add a couple of things to that. It's part of actually Dory's the long, which is just being having strategic patience, meaning sometimes we go about networking when we actually need something, and this is where we have to be patient and understand that we need agency when it comes to networking. Start now, even if you don't need anything, even if you're super comfortable in your work, in your job, in everything you have, because if you wait until you need it, then it's already too late, right, Like dig the well before you're thirsty. So I think that's just something that I advise folks.
Speaker 2:And I just want to acknowledge something else that I guess two points that networking may be challenging for introverts. So, again, dori is an introvert herself. This is something that you know. You need to manage your energy so that you do it in a place and in a platform where it's going to work for you. And then the other one that I would say is kind of the gender difference that women, or people who identify as women, may we're great at building relationships, but we may not be great at being strategic about using our relationships. And again, it's not about being a taker, but it's about ensuring that you are being strategic, that you're surrounding yourself with a network that you're going to need, that is going to inspire you, that is going to keep you accountable, to get you to where you want to go.
Speaker 1:Jenny, amazing ads. I have really enjoyed our conversation. Is there anything that you would like to leave our audience with? And then two is if people want to learn more about you, your work, how to connect with you, what's the best way to do that?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, no, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no.
Speaker 2:So I again, I'm a huge fan of using, as I mentioned these, all of these great marketing principles and personal brand building to help you know the audience like you. Frankly, to be more effective leaders, you don't have to be a solopreneur, but you really need to understand how building your personal brand is going to help you, even within your company, because that's you know, people hire and promote people who they know and like. So those decisions that are happening, you need to have more than one person, more than one ally, in the room, and that is part of personal branding, self-promotion, et cetera. So I advise folks to rethink and be open about resetting your assumptions and your mindset about the topic so that you can truly unlock growth in your career. And with that, I'll just kind of ask you guys feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn, jenny Fernandez, and also go to my website, jennyfernandezcom. As I mentioned, I have the free personal branding ebook and I also have a newsletter that you can sign up for, and please check out my Harvard Business Review and Fast Company articles.
Speaker 1:Well, Jenny, I mean, you are a content machine. It's all super high quality. That's why I was so pleased that we got introduced. I've gotten to know you here a little bit Amazing insights today and we have only scratched the surface of where all we could have gone in this conversation. But thank you for our audience. We'll put JennyFernandezcom in the final version of this so you can click there. Please do follow her on LinkedIn. Connect with Jenny on LinkedIn. But most I just want to say thank you, everybody for taking a few minutes out of your day. We hope that what you heard today helps you as you think about your own personal brand, how that informs where you can take your career and then how to expand your professional relationships to get to where you want to be, while helping other people get where they want to be as well. So thank you so much, Jenny. It was great. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Bob, Thanks everyone.
